Carry Gun with or without safety?

[MarkC]

I carry with one in the chamber and absolutely no manual safety.

For some reason this came to mind:

 

[Indian]

I always carry a chambered round in my Glock but I have a lot of training in how to correctly draw and holster my firearm due to my job. One idea to think about is, you will be using fine motor skills to take the safety off if you need to discharge your weapon.

(Small movements — such as picking up small objects and holding a spoon — that use the small muscles of the fingers, toes, wrists, lips, and tongue). Gross motor skills are the bigger movements — such as rolling over and sitting — that use the large muscles in the arms, legs, torso, and feet.

One thing I leared in my training is when your get stressed or excited, the use of small motor fade. I believe the answer for you would be to train train and train till you are comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, if that is how you decide to carry. However as T.Lex said above there are know cases of situation where a pull-loop for a jacket wedged at exactly the right/wrong angle to discharge his OWB holstered Glock, in a room full of other professionals

 

[ACC]

I EDC a G19 or G43 with a round in the chamber everyday and never worry about an AD. However, I NEVER pull my gun out of the holster and play with it/show it off. I am pretty confident it wont shoot while it is holstered.

 

[JettaKnight]

I am familiar with a very proficient carrier - you might even consider the person a professional at it - who suffered a situation where a pull-loop for a jacket wedged at exactly the right/wrong angle to discharge his OWB holstered Glock, in a room full of other professionals. There was no coonfingering. It was a one-in-a-billion. Not sure if that counts as AD/ND, but not to me.


It comes down to risk aversion.

Was there holstering involved?


"Accidental Discharge" =/= "Negligent Discharge". They are two different things. As you describe it, I'd argue that it was an AD.


Oh yeah - Cut those things off your jackets!!!!

 

[JettaKnight]

Personally for me, it's a psychological issue from a lack of experience. I know with proper training that the options with no safeties aren't inherently more dangerous, but it still makes me nervous. I can't even argue that having no safeties is a worse option. I don't disagree that if I needed to use it I want as few mistakes to occur as possible. Would I remover to flick the safety off?

Those ever lingering 'what ifs?' really get stuck in the head and bounce around.

My LTCH is in process so I suppose I should probably put more thought into what I want to carry and the features that make me feel comfortable. Luckily just because I have t doesn't mean I have to carry and I can take as long as I want to decide and then it'll be class time.

If you train to turn off the safety, then the memory is muscle memory - you don't need to consciously remember to do it - it will be automatic.

 

[T.Lex]

Was there holstering involved?


"Accidental Discharge" =/= "Negligent Discharge". They are two different things. As you describe it, I'd argue that it was an AD.

Well, the firearm was in the holster when it went off, so at some point, holstering of it was involved.

So, I wasn't there, but based on the witnesses' retelling of the event to me (as I now recall it) the holstering was well prior to the boomification. The jacket loop was in the wrong place when the firearm was holstered, but for a period of time everything was aligned so that nothing happened. (There's a Hitchhiker's Guide reference buried in there somewhere.) After some period of time - maybe a few minutes - upon the individual moving in a normal way, the boom happened.

Again, I'm not sure if that's accidental or negligent. But it is enough to make me wary, given that I typically CC, which IMHO raises the risk of various articles of clothing being in the wrong place at the wrong time doing the wrong thing.

 

[Areoflyer09]

If you train to turn off the safety, then the memory is muscle memory - you don't need to consciously remember to do it - it will be automatic.

Repeated practice creates the required muscle memory to perform the action. I know that, but knowing it and being confident in it are very different. At least, they are for me.

I know that correct practice and training will make it a natural motion to in holster and click the safety. Like wise, I know that not having a safety is by inherently more dangerous when our practice with the proper techniques for that platform. But those what-ifs are wonderful at putting the right seed at the right spot to make you double question things.

I'm sure that classes, practice and experience will build the confidence and put the what-ifs to rest, but it's been an interesting thought process as I work through it. The ability of the mind to create the perfect seeds of self-doubt never fails to astound me.

 

[HubertGummer]

How often does that actually happen? Most, if not all, cases of AD are actually ND's where the shooter is too embarrassed (or trying to avoid legal ramifications) to admit to coonfingering.

The few cases of AD that I am aware of involve dropping old firearms (Polish P64), faulty trigger mechanism due to poor maintenance or misadjustment (Rem 700), or the ghost at Shootrite (Rem 870). I'm not personally aware of incidents involving modern combat handguns.


The biggest risk is during the holstering procedure and my technique is the same as BigTanker's.

Probably not that often, and it doesn't keep me from carrying with one in the pipe, but it just makes me think sometimes if I'm in a place that would be VERY BAD to have a ND.

 

[cedartop]

I always carry a chambered round in my Glock but I have a lot of training in how to correctly draw and holster my firearm due to my job. One idea to think about is, you will be using fine motor skills to take the safety off if you need to discharge your weapon.

(Small movements — such as picking up small objects and holding a spoon — that use the small muscles of the fingers, toes, wrists, lips, and tongue). Gross motor skills are the bigger movements — such as rolling over and sitting — that use the large muscles in the arms, legs, torso, and feet.

One thing I leared in my training is when your get stressed or excited, the use of small motor fade. I believe the answer for you would be to train train and train till you are comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, if that is how you decide to carry. However as T.Lex said above there are know cases of situation where a pull-loop for a jacket wedged at exactly the right/wrong angle to discharge his OWB holstered Glock, in a room full of other professionals

The same type of motor skills used to press the trigger?

 

[cedartop]

I have softened my position quite a bit on the issue of safeties on carry guns. If someone prefers a safety then so be it. The main problem I see with it is that the majority of gun owners do not train enough under relevant conditions to make the proper engagement and disengagement of said safety a sure thing. If you compete with a gun with a safety or train with it on a regular basis, preferably under some mild stress, it may be the way to go. I would much rather see someone carry a gun with a safety on it (provided proper practice and training), than carry with an empty chamber any day.

 

[Bendrx]

As a regular carry, my FNP doesn't have any manual safety. Always one in the pipe, not cocked. My first carry pistol was DA/SA with manual safety, always carried with safety off. I also have a pocket pistol that's DA only, stiff trigger and carry it the same way. Just very careful what else goes into that pocket - Cell phone at most. Personally I'm not a fan of cocked and locked on SA - but no issue being around those that do. At the end of the day, if the trigger isn't pulled it's not going to go off and it's personal comfort. Additionally, if you're carrying I view it as being on standby. For storage, safety always on when applicable.

 

[Tyler-The-Piker]

Adrenaline dumps can be rough, I don't want to add a step (or two) into the equation. I guess since I started taking carrying seriously I've trained with Glocks and I'm very comfortable with one in a good holster/belt combo.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

If you must have a manual safety, the Shield is a poor choice. The safety is small and the ergonomics of it suck. Under time pressure, can you deactivate it 100% of the time on the draw? Can you do it while injured? Can you do it while tangled up with someone who's assaulting you?

I am pretty solidly against thumb safeties on carry guns for all but the most dedicated of users...and I'm iffy on them. I've seen several people lose their fight because they didn't get the safety deactivated. Nothing says "oops" like sucking up 14 rounds of .40 while you're 1911 is in your hand with the safety on and you can't shoot back. Nothing says "oops" like pulling a dead trigger, having the gun taken from you, and then being raped.

There obviously are people who can run the safety very well. The issue is everyone who carries one thinks they can. Some find out they couldn't, and then it's too late.

PLEASE do not carry on an empty chamber. Again, I've seen people lose because of it. If you can't trust a gun with a cartridge under the hammer/striker, get a revolver. You can leave the chamber under the hammer empty if you just absolutely must for your own peace of mind, and the only thing it costs is one round of capacity. The revolver still shoots with one trigger pull because the cylinder rotates away from the empty chamber as you pull the trigger.

 

[garagegunmaker]

How often does that actually happen? Most, if not all, cases of AD are actually ND's where the shooter is too embarrassed (or trying to avoid legal ramifications) to admit to coonfingering.

The few cases of AD that I am aware of involve dropping old firearms (Polish P64), faulty trigger mechanism due to poor maintenance or misadjustment (Rem 700), or the ghost at Shootrite (Rem 870). I'm not personally aware of incidents involving modern combat handguns.


The biggest risk is during the holstering procedure and my technique is the same as BigTanker's.

I can speak from experience the p64 is not a good carry gun. When I was younger and had just got my ltch I owned 2 of them. I would pocket carry with them mostly(in a quality pocket holster that covered trigger). It does have a manual safety that I would use, but one time I was in a hurry to leave and as I was putting it in to the front pocket of my jeans..Kaboom! Bullet left my jeans right by my knee and hit the floor 3 inches from my foot. I was extremely lucky not to have been injured. It must have hit a floor joist because there was no hole in the kitchen ceiling downstairs. The trigger was covered so my best guess is the hammer caught my pocket and pulled back half way then sprung forward and hit the firing pin. I now believe manual safety's can give a false sense of safety, and every handgun I currently own is striker fired with no manual saftey. I now know the importance of paying attention when reholstering.

 

[Turf Doctor]

I currently have a glock 43 and a M&P Shield. I carry both in an Alien Gear Cloack Tuck 3.0. One thing that has always concerned me is carrying the glock with a round in the chamber without the external safety on the gun. I realize that I am the ultimate safety and without my finger on the trigger...... as well as the safety in the trigger of the glock. I practice and feel comfortable with my draw and finger placement, it is that I am around so many children in one instance where I have to carry and I worry about an accidental discharge.

There is something about having the safety on the Smith that makes me feel more comfortable but the dilemma is I shoot my glock way way better. If I ever need to protect myself or other I care about I have the ultimate confidence that I can place the shots needed with the glock 43.

Anyone else think about this stuff and if so, what helped you get past it?

I carry a Glock 26 or 19 AIWB. I just maintain and use the gun as it should be. I do not abuse my equipment. That said, things can happen and I used to think about an accidental discharge. Just do not over analyze the gun safety.

I was once told by a racecar driver that had a bad wreck while racing that something in the rear end broke. He told me you have to trust your equipment.

 

[cedartop]

[video=youtube;0FXHVjXPtJk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FXHVjXPtJk[/video]

 

[saintnick81]

Father and son perish while dad struggles to chamber his empty carry weapon

I was just coming to post this same link.

 

[Excalibur]

The first gun I've ever gotten for carry was an XDM 3.8C and I used to over rely on the grip safety when I reholster. All I needed to do was just drop my gun into the holster without touching the grip safety so I don't look down. I've since known better and train. Now, when I reholster, it means that the danger is over and it is safe for me to holster my gun. I look down to see if anything is obstructing the holster and then holster.

When I first got the gun, I was waiting for my LTCH and had in in the house without a round in the chamber...for a day and then looking at it, I realized that I am the safety. So I chambered the gun and kept it around. Same with carrying. I never carry an unloaded gun unless it's to a gun show that have rules against it.

 

[JettaKnight]

Father and son perish while dad struggles to chamber his empty carry weapon

There's got to be a better website with the same video.

 

[cedartop]

There's got to be a better website with the same video.

Ya. I thought I was posting directly to the ASP website, but it wasn't. When I get in front of a real computer I will take care of that.