Can you *legally* purchase a firearm if you wouldn't pass a NICS check?

[Gluemanz28]

Just a question: If you are delayed and and the FFL never receives a follow up wouldn't that be considered not passing, but still being allowed to purchase after the waiting period?

 

[stephen87]

To sum up (since some folk are anxious to move on to the chaos and acrimony), if a purchaser could not pass a NICS check, they cannot legally purchase a firearm from a private seller.
The followup question is how much due diligence is required from a seller? My guess is that there is no definitive answer to that.

The due diligence would be what I ran into.

I took an AR out to my trunk to sell and one of my neighbors called me over. Asked how much I paid for it and what brand it was, I told him what I had invested into it and that I built it. He asked me if I would help him build one, I said sure. He asked where to get all of the pieces and asked if a background check needed to be performed. I told him only on the lower. He then asked if he gave me the money, if I would buy the lower since he was a felon. I about-faced, got in my car and left.

 

[throttletony]

Just a question: If you are delayed and and the FFL never receives a follow up wouldn't that be considered not passing, but still being allowed to purchase after the waiting period?

IANAL
This is how I understand it at the local FFL level - this would/should absolve them of (at least a minimal level of) responsibility.
If no follow-up is made, then after the 48 or 72 (?) hours, the store can complete the sale if THE STORE WANTS.
Again, IANAL.

This always seemed similar to the idea that "not guilty" is not the same thing as "innocent" in a legal sense.

 

[ATM]

...The followup question is how much due diligence is required from a seller? My guess is that there is no definitive answer to that.

Make sure they're at least 18.

If you know they are otherwise prohibited, it would be illegal to sell to them (not necessarily wrong, just illegal).

There is no requirement for the seller to investigate further just as there is nothing prohibiting them from inquiring further of the purchaser as a voluntarily condition of sale.

I look forward to the ensuing chaos in this thread ...only 12 more hours!

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Hmmmmmmm...

There is a difference between knowing that an individual has engaged in certain behaviors and his having been convicted of an offense in connection with them.

If I have personal knowledge that someone stays drunk 24/7 and slaps his old lady around but the individual has never been in jail for such behavior I fail to see any legal impediment to selling him a gun.

The fact that I would never consider doing so is based on moral strictures, not legal ones.

 

[MohawkSlim]

if a person would NOT be able to pass a NICS check, and they then purchase a firearm from a private seller, has the purchaser committed a crime?

If they are a prohibited person they have committed a crime. If they're not a prohibited person, they have not committed a crime.

- If the seller *knows* the purchaser is an alcohol "abuser," uses marijuana, has a history of domestic violence, or any other offense that would preclude them from passing a NICS check, is the seller in violation of the law?

If the seller knowingly sells to a prohibited person they are violating the law.

Due diligence on the seller's part is not required. As others have said, the *knows* part is crucial. If you know that person is prohibited you cannot sell. If you have no reason to believe they're prohibited then sell away. It sounds like what you're asking is, "My neighbor is an old drunk and he slaps his old lady around sometimes. I'm not sure if he's a felon but I smell weed coming from his house sometimes. He wants to buy my old 12 gauge and I told him I'd sell it to him once his $8300 tax check (even though he doesn't work much) comes in. Now, I kind of feel bad about it because I know he probably shouldn't have a gun. Can I go to jail for it?"

The answer is yes. And no.

If he has no record or anything that would pop up in NICS, then he's not prohibited. Are you the one who decides who's an alcohol "abuser?" Do you know if that smell was really marijuana? Does his old lady enjoy getting slapped around? Sometimes things are just beyond your control.

What the ATF will probably tell you as they're building their case to send you off to the federal, pound me in the @$$ penitentiary, because you sold to a prohibited person is, "You should have known." You can argue all day that you didn't have to check and they'll simply say, "tell it to the judge."

Simple answer is you're damned if you do, damned if you don't. Complex answer is unless you purchased that firearm from a licensed dealer and there was a record via 4473 or insurance or other "paperwork" there's absolutely no way to determine how that "questionable individual" acquired that firearm. Even if he does blow his old lady's head off in a drunken stupor, there's no way to trace it back to you unless you signed the King's tracing papers.

 

[Floivanus]

For ME, YOU must have an In., LTCH, and In., Driver License .....

That protects ME .....

If In., screwed up, giving you a LTCH, then that is not my fault .....

I am NOT a Lawyer .....

Just want to stay OUT of jail .....

For YOU fine; but legally you need PROOF of residency and to FEEL like the person isn't a prohibited person.

IF for instance I gave you an LTCH and a DL, but hopped out of a car wreaking of pot, you sell to me, you sold to a prohibited person. I'm much more impressed with a BOS, or actually the act of saying 'I'll do a BOS' over a pretty easily replicated piece of pink paper

 

[femurphy77]

[video=youtube;00xEOcUPZ1Q]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00xEOcUPZ1Q[/video]

Bacon egg and cheese croissant.

 

[ATM]

I've also heard that when the lifetime LTCH goes away, all private sales will have to be conducted in gun shop parking lots.

 

[WestSider]

Yeah I wouldn't risk it.. I have done dozens of private firearm transactions: buying, selling, trading. Luckily they have all been positive for me.
Easy when you don't know the other party, just check the ID to verify age and residency and you're good.

Luckily here on INGO we have a good feedback system which weeds out most of the bad actors.

 

[Tactically Fat]

A co-worker of mine was denied 2-3x for a firearms purchase by an FFL.

He had done absolutely nothing wrong as far as the law was concerned.

Someone else with basically the same name HAD run afoul of the law and was screwing things up for my co-worker.

He had to get a UPIN before he could pass NICS.

"The System" isn't fool proof. Denial of NICS doesn't mean that one is disallowed the possession and/or purchase of a firearm.

 

[Hawkeye]

I've also heard that when the lifetime LTCH goes away, all private sales will have to be conducted in gun shop parking lots.

But only in poorly lit ones when the Moon is not out.

 

[BE Mike]

Does not matter. Obviously, if you are a convicted felon you cannot legally possess, let alone purchase. But on the other end of the scale - an occasional marijuana user or an illegal alien - are you prohibited from purchasing a firearm? If you knowingly sell to someone who falls into either category?

I wasn't going to get into it, but what constitutes "due diligence" on the part of the seller? If the purchaser has a foreign accent? If they are driving a car with a "NORML" bumper sticker? How far do you, as a seller, have to go to insure that you are selling to a proper person?

Selling guns to illegal aliens must be ok. Isn't that what ATF did under "Fast and Furious". Of course the Terry family probably isn't happy with that, but hey they don't matter, do they?

 

[PGRChaplain]

BACON!