Can any LEOs or former clarify something that happened to me last night?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • DDadams

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    72   0   0
    Jan 17, 2014
    1,102
    113
    North Indy
    So last night I got pulled over going 58 in a 50 construction zone (where I was just passed by semis going 65+) - for some reason or another the guy wanted me I guess.

    I knew well in advance I was getting pulled over because I saw him activate his camera - I think? Because there was a little red light in the middle of his dash that came on about 1 minute in advance of the lights coming on.

    Anyways I stop in probably record time because I knew it was coming and do the normal stuff, turn all interior lights on, emergency blinkers, hands way up on the wheel.


    He comes up pretty quick, says why he stopped me, and asks right off the bat how much I've had to drink. I actually haven't had a drink since November 10th 2016 - celebrating the election - and before that I think my last time drinking was 2013? He said he didn't buy it and to step out to do some tests.

    Cool. I wanted to just tell him I'd be happy to do a breathalyzer right off the bat but just figured I'd let him do what he wants and go from there. I was nervous to do just tests because although I respect and trust police in what feels like 99.99% of cases and situations - I have seen videos and heard of cases where totally sober people "fail" and get sent to jail after blowing all zeros.

    So the thing that's been bothering me is when we got to the eye test - following the pen with eyes only, no head movement. I was wearing a hat. Two different times he went from one side and fairly quickly moved the pen up to above the bill of my hat and I felt like I fell for a trick to get me to move my head - because it worked. I made sure to mention it out loud but I don't recall him acknowledging what I said.


    After all tests he let me go with a written warning.

    Was he trying to jam me up with the pen? Is that something that's a commonplace tactic/trick? It threw me off for the last 2 tests really bad because I was pissed at myself for falling for what seemed like an obvious trick and I know it made me seem nervous when I had literally nothing to fear.
     

    radar8756

    Works for Me
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    12   0   1
    Sep 21, 2010
    2,738
    97
    Westville, IN
    Construction Zones are extra Points on Selective Enforcement - they also like to add a second infraction ( turn signal - ) so you are not eligible for some of the standard "deals"
     

    MidwesternStructures

    Plinker
    Local Business Supporter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    May 30, 2023
    85
    18
    Indiana
    I believe they are looking for two things on the pen test. One if you can follow directions and two if your eyes bounce around.
    They’re looking for horizontal/vertical nystagmus. Some drunks are really good at talking without a slur, but it’s quite difficult to fake not having nystagmus.

    Indiana doesn’t require you to take field sobriety tests btw. If they have probable cause, they can take you to the station to perform a blood/breath test, but you’re not required to do the SFST.

    Probably good you did in your case because you didn’t get detained and hauled off to the station.
     

    indyblue

    Guns & Pool Shooter
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Aug 13, 2013
    3,701
    129
    Indy Northside `O=o-
    A similar situation happened to me a couple years ago in Avon a couple days after new years. Pulled over for speeding and did a bunch of tests which I apparently failed. He moved the pen so far beyond my range of sight which caused me great eye strain to even do. Then made me do the straight line foot-to-foot walk and I was wearing my driving moccasins that have NO lateral support like barefoot. I cannot even do that test on my own fully sober (which I was) and a 60 years old is no easy task to begin with.

    The young cop was sure I was on something and his seasoned backup that was also at the scene I overheard him says "it's your stop, your decision" to bust me which led me to believe the seasoned cop was not convinced I was under any influence. He gave me a breath test and I blew a .000 and then took me to the Hendricks Co. hospital for a blood draw.

    No written warning or other citation was ever given. I never heard back from the prosecutor and no action was ever taken against me.
     

    Destro

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Mar 10, 2011
    3,926
    113
    The Khyber Pass
    So last night I got pulled over going 58 in a 50 construction zone (where I was just passed by semis going 65+) - for some reason or another the guy wanted me I guess.

    I knew well in advance I was getting pulled over because I saw him activate his camera - I think? Because there was a little red light in the middle of his dash that came on about 1 minute in advance of the lights coming on.

    Anyways I stop in probably record time because I knew it was coming and do the normal stuff, turn all interior lights on, emergency blinkers, hands way up on the wheel.


    He comes up pretty quick, says why he stopped me, and asks right off the bat how much I've had to drink. I actually haven't had a drink since November 10th 2016 - celebrating the election - and before that I think my last time drinking was 2013? He said he didn't buy it and to step out to do some tests.

    Cool. I wanted to just tell him I'd be happy to do a breathalyzer right off the bat but just figured I'd let him do what he wants and go from there. I was nervous to do just tests because although I respect and trust police in what feels like 99.99% of cases and situations - I have seen videos and heard of cases where totally sober people "fail" and get sent to jail after blowing all zeros.

    So the thing that's been bothering me is when we got to the eye test - following the pen with eyes only, no head movement. I was wearing a hat. Two different times he went from one side and fairly quickly moved the pen up to above the bill of my hat and I felt like I fell for a trick to get me to move my head - because it worked. I made sure to mention it out loud but I don't recall him acknowledging what I said.


    After all tests he let me go with a written warning.

    Was he trying to jam me up with the pen? Is that something that's a commonplace tactic/trick? It threw me off for the last 2 tests really bad because I was pissed at myself for falling for what seemed like an obvious trick and I know it made me seem nervous when I had literally nothing to fear.
    I am certified in Standardized Field Sobriety Testing. They say "the eyes don't lie"

    The Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (HGN) test is the important one.
    The Vertical Gaze Nystagmus (which you are describing) is part of it, but it is more of a "check" on the results.
    If someone has passed the HGN, they are probably going to pass the VGN. You don't usually have VGN only unless caused by a medical condition. Usually VGN indicates high alcohol levels or some drugs.

    I'm guessing you passed HGN and he was performing VGN because they are "standardized" tests. If he thought there was an issue, he probably would have had you remove the hat, repeated instructions, and administered the test again.
     

    DDadams

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    72   0   0
    Jan 17, 2014
    1,102
    113
    North Indy
    They’re looking for horizontal/vertical nystagmus. Some drunks are really good at talking without a slur, but it’s quite difficult to fake not having nystagmus.

    Indiana doesn’t require you to take field sobriety tests btw. If they have probable cause, they can take you to the station to perform a blood/breath test, but you’re not required to do the SFST.

    Probably good you did in your case because you didn’t get detained and hauled off to the station.


    I didn't know that and honestly it didn't feel like I had a choice as I'm 99% sure he opened my door at the time he was saying we were going to do the tests.

    I am certified in Standardized Field Sobriety Testing. They say "the eyes don't lie"

    The Horizontal Gaze Nystagmus (HGN) test is the important one.
    The Vertical Gaze Nystagmus (which you are describing) is part of it, but it is more of a "check" on the results.
    If someone has passed the HGN, they are probably going to pass the VGN. You don't usually have VGN only unless caused by a medical condition. Usually VGN indicates high alcohol levels or some drugs.

    I'm guessing you passed HGN and he was performing VGN because they are "standardized" tests. If he thought there was an issue, he probably would have had you remove the hat, repeated instructions, and administered the test again.

    Thank you. So you don't think it's something some police might do on purpose to trick people into moving their head a good bit for the camera?

    Because he went awfully high, awfully fast. It really just seemed like it was on purpose.
     
    Last edited:

    Ark

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    26   0   0
    Feb 18, 2017
    6,853
    113
    Indy
    I believe they are looking for two things on the pen test. One if you can follow directions and two if your eyes bounce around.
    Well, they're always looking for a third thing: Whether you willingly do or say something stupid when given the opportunity.

    How many people have you seen hauled to jail because they just freaked out and wouldn't shut up? Sometimes I wonder if half the purpose of a traffic stop is just "lets see if he wants to go to jail today".
     

    rosejm

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    11   0   0
    Nov 28, 2013
    1,786
    129
    NWI
    As I understand, moving the stimulus beyond your field of vision is part of the test.

    Here's some excellent description of the HGN test: https://www.ncdd.com/top-dui-attorn...-how-it-works-how-to-challenge-and-exclude-it
    7. Passes -- Maximum Deviation. The third set of four passes is designed to determine whether the person has distinct nystagmus at maximum deviation. Maximum deviation is the point at which the eye has moved fully to one side and cannot move any further. In this phase, the stimulus is moved from the center position to the person's far left at a rate taking at least two seconds, held for at least four seconds, and then moved back to the center position at the same two-second rate.x In this phase, each pass for each eye must take at least eight seconds and the four passes together must take at least 32 seconds. When the stimulus is at maximum deviation, the officer must observe "distinct" nystagmus in order to score a clue for that eye. It is insufficient to simply observe nystagmus at maximum deviation since most people will exhibit some visible nystagmus when the eye is held at maximum deviation. The nystagmus that must be observed in this phase must be distinct: that is, greater than the natural nystagmus that will occur from holding the eye at maximum deviation.

    Performing a VGN test with a brimmed hat on would not follow protocol.
    This article also mentions that the VGN test was not part of the NHSTA validation testing for FSTs, as VGN would not be present without HGN.
     

    KG1

    Forgotten Man
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    66   0   0
    Jan 20, 2009
    25,638
    149
    Construction Zones are extra Points on Selective Enforcement - they also like to add a second infraction ( turn signal - ) so you are not eligible for some of the standard "deals"
    ^This^ He really could've jammed him up for speeding in a construction zone.
     

    Flingarrows

    Expert
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Mar 9, 2019
    889
    99
    Greenwood
    A similar situation happened to me a couple years ago in Avon a couple days after new years. Pulled over for speeding and did a bunch of tests which I apparently failed. He moved the pen so far beyond my range of sight which caused me great eye strain to even do. Then made me do the straight line foot-to-foot walk and I was wearing my driving moccasins that have NO lateral support like barefoot. I cannot even do that test on my own fully sober (which I was) and a 60 years old is no easy task to begin with.

    The young cop was sure I was on something and his seasoned backup that was also at the scene I overheard him says "it's your stop, your decision" to bust me which led me to believe the seasoned cop was not convinced I was under any influence. He gave me a breath test and I blew a .000 and then took me to the Hendricks Co. hospital for a blood draw.

    No written warning or other citation was ever given. I never heard back from the prosecutor and no action was ever taken against me.

    Wow! Good restraint on your part. I don’t know if I would have dropped it. Sometimes young ones need to feel the lumps to learn
     

    indyblue

    Guns & Pool Shooter
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Aug 13, 2013
    3,701
    129
    Indy Northside `O=o-
    Wow! Good restraint on your part. I don’t know if I would have dropped it. Sometimes young ones need to feel the lumps to learn
    My personal policy, while interacting with law-enforcement is, and has always been to be polite, respectful, up front and follow their instructions.

    This has allowed me to be let go on my way with nothing more than a stern finger wagging and no citation. After all, they’re only doing their jobs and the majority of times has come of my own doing (i.e.speeding).
     

    DDadams

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    72   0   0
    Jan 17, 2014
    1,102
    113
    North Indy
    The speeding part was a joke to me as it really was another excuse in the end, he had been on me for at least 1.5-2 miles before the construction zone and the only reason I was "speeding" is because everyone else wasn't slowing down from the normal 65mph in that area. I slowed a little but not to 50. Him and I both got passed by multiple semis and other vehicles.

    I'm not mad at anything other than the pen test. The way he moved it to what would have been an impossible place for me to view without moving my head just felt like a trick to really jam me up on purpose.
     
    Top Bottom