Camping/Hiking Rifle

[bobjones223]

You are saying the firearm used by most if not all Special Forces along with standard troops isnt capable in the wilderness for a self defense firearm.

You are 100% entitled to your opine...but I think you need to re-examine your facts. Nothing of what you said is actually true. In fact, its 100% wrong. I can prove that statement by pointing to 50 years of armed conflict testifying to the AR15s hardiness in the field.

Please dont come back with AR15s are not M16/M4s...yes they are. The designation M16XX and M4XX are WORD DESIGNATIONS given to the AR15 by Military contract.

Ohhhh what the hell.....I will jump in on this one.

Last time I checked we haven't gone to war with bears in the last 50+ years unless I am missing a military action some place?

The physical features, size, and direction of attack are completely different between the two species.

People are soft skinned, thin boned, and all of our vitals are front and center during an attack.

Bears on the other hand are tough skinned, thick boned, weigh 2-4 times as much as a human, and attack head down with all vitals covered by meaty back, shoulders, thick ribs, and their skull is three times as thick as "most" humans.....(some people are just thick headed)

If there was a bear v/s human war that I am not remembering I am assuming all attacks from the BEARS were within five feet.

I don't know about you but at those distances I am putting all my money on mass and energy!....so my vote is for 12 gauge with slugs!.....

A simple 870 pump gun, short slug barrel, and sling. Shouldn't be to scary for fellow hikers (hunting rifle look), reliable, fast, and plenty of knockdown up close!

Bear war tested, bear war approved!

 

[two70]

No there is a major weight and reliability considerations when considering a camp/survival rifle. I never said AR15's were military only and in fact I say they are not at all suited for military use. Having actually hunted with an ar15 I can tell you it has a vast number of shortcomings when humping through a woods with gear. They are not ideal wilderness survival rifle. They also have some major downfalls when it comes to foreign objects causing stoppages. A bolt gun doesn't, and the ruger American takes box mags which means you can conveniently carry ammo, have a rifle that weighs 1/3 what an ar does, and that has the ability to fire rapidly with training. An ar15, is not ideal and has drawbacks that keep it from being something i'd recommend to a person who hikes in dangerous wilderness. Reliability, weight, power, and adaptability give all the bonuses to bolt guns. I think the "Macho" camp would be suggesting manning up and packing the unnecessary extra weight and carrying an ar15 that has no advantage, none when it comes to a hiking gun.

The handgun camp isn't wrong, but it's also not right. Rifles have more power and that is what I want when a bear comes at me. But wilderness experts have long held that proper bear mace is more effective at stopping an attack than anything else. For a wilderness set up I want bear mace, and a bolt gun, maybe a 10mm glock on my chest or waist. An ar15 isn't even a consideration as a wilderness rifle imo.

While true that wilderness experts have frequently promoted the idea that bear spray is the most effective means of stopping a bear attack, a recent study I read painted a much different story. The conclusion of the study was basically that the major advantage for bear spray was that it could be deployed more quickly then any other means when carried on and fired from a belt without un-holstering it. Carried and used in any other fashion and the effectiveness dropped dramatically. It also noted that bear spray alone failed to stop attacks in a significant number of cases and concluded that when bears are fully committed to the attack, bear spray was unlikely to stop it.

 

[Ggreen]

You are saying the firearm used by most if not all Special Forces along with standard troops isnt capable in the wilderness for a self defense firearm.

You are 100% entitled to your opine...but I think you need to re-examine your facts. Nothing of what you said is actually true. In fact, its 100% wrong. I can prove that statement by pointing to 50 years of armed conflict testifying to the AR15s hardiness in the field.

Please dont come back with AR15s are not M16/M4s...yes they are. The designation M16XX and M4XX are WORD DESIGNATIONS given to the AR15 by Military contract.

The military is also expecting to get into a firefight with their M16's. We expect to have to put down suppressing fire, engage an entire unit of hostiles, among many other things. AR15s are not M16's and never will be. But now that you live in a free state please pack up a 3 day bag with all your hiking gear and an AR15 and hike across Hoosier Nat'l then on the way back to your car swap it for a scout rifle and report back to us with which one was easier to carry through the woods.

Ar's rattle, have sharp edges, lots of catchy points, weigh multiple pounds more, could be illegal if you cross a state line while hiking, are heavy, most have metal or black plastic that gets hot as hell or cold enough to frost over. Have multiple points of failure if dropped or for debris to enter. A scout rifle is lightweight, wood or light polymer stock that won't burn you or freeze you, no need to carry gun oil, no operating system points of failure if dropped in glue then sand. Oh and they weigh half of what an AR does. Oh and the military still depends on bolt guns in high risk situation unlike your blunderbuss analogy.

Ar's aren't M16'S or M4's.

While true that wilderness experts have frequently promoted the idea that bear spray is the most effective means of stopping a bear attack, a recent study I read painted a much different story. The conclusion of the study was basically that the major advantage for bear spray was that it could be deployed more quickly then any other means when carried on and fired from a belt without un-holstering it. Carried and used in any other fashion and the effectiveness dropped dramatically. It also noted that bear spray alone failed to stop attacks in a significant number of cases and concluded that when bears are fully committed to the attack, bear spray was unlikely to stop it.

Guns have failed to stop a lot of attacks too. Moose included. The advantage of mace is that a person doesn't really have to aim and can fog the area. A pistol or rifle requires a draw and the shot to be placed properly enough to be effective. The real problem isn't the animal you see from 75 yards it's those Cubs you Walk up on while looking at the pretty sunrise and Mom is sitting about 10yards away and decides to charge

 

[two70]

Guns have failed to stop a lot of attacks too. Moose included. The advantage of mace is that a person doesn't really have to aim and can fog the area. A pistol or rifle requires a draw and the shot to be placed properly enough to be effective. The real problem isn't the animal you see from 75 yards it's those Cubs you Walk up on while looking at the pretty sunrise and Mom is sitting about 10yards away and decides to charge

Bear spray not only has to be aimed accurately but wind direction also has to be taken into account lest a person douse themselves instead of the bear. The lone advantage bear spray has is that it can be deployed far more rapidly than any other bear defense option when carried properly. The down side is that it may not stop an attack. Firearms are slow to deploy but more effective at stopping the attack provided shots are delivered accurately. Either way, no single method of bear defense is foolproof and it is smart to have more than one readily accessible.

 

[Ggreen]

Bear spray not only has to be aimed accurately but wind direction also has to be taken into account lest a person douse themselves instead of the bear. The lone advantage bear spray has is that it can be deployed far more rapidly than any other bear defense option when carried properly. The down side is that it may not stop an attack. Firearms are slow to deploy but more effective at stopping the attack provided shots are delivered accurately. Either way, no single method of bear defense is foolproof and it is smart to have more than one readily accessible.

I agree. I believe mace is the best generally accepted suggestion based on the amount of people that don't have the skill set to rapidly deploy and score a proper hit under duress as opposed to squeeze and sweep lol.

 

[indiucky]

I like my Ruger 77/357...It along with a Smith and Wesson model 60-10 are great woods companions...Very lightweight....

 

[Leadeye]

A modern 45 Colt (Henry) shooting a Lyman 325 grain cast lead bullet will put that bullet through a whitetail doe lengthwise at 30 yards with the right load. While I've shot that same cartridge from a Ruger Blackhawk, it's not something I would do every day for fun. There's a rifle/pistol combo using the same ammo. You can even get shot loads for the revolver.

 

[indiucky]

There's a rifle/pistol combo using the same ammo. You can even get shot loads for the revolver.

My go to woods guns are a pair of Ruger New vaquero birdsheads in 45 long colt and 45 ACP.....I carry them because of the shot loads....They are the best cartidges for that...

[video=youtube;EB8mIjFr8tQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EB8mIjFr8tQ[/video]

 

[smythe012]

While true that wilderness experts have frequently promoted the idea that bear spray is the most effective means of stopping a bear attack, a recent study I read painted a much different story. The conclusion of the study was basically that the major advantage for bear spray was that it could be deployed more quickly then any other means when carried on and fired from a belt without un-holstering it. Carried and used in any other fashion and the effectiveness dropped dramatically. It also noted that bear spray alone failed to stop attacks in a significant number of cases and concluded that when bears are fully committed to the attack, bear spray was unlikely to stop it.

Very interesting. I hike out west a lot and have relied on bear spray most of the time. Do you by chance have a link to the study? I would love to read it!

 

[JJFII]

So...what have we learned...

1- Military designations alter the physical aspects and design of machinery. Even though they are made by the same company, act in the same way, the mere fact the Military calls it something different alters the molecular structure of the atoms into a completely different thing...um..OK..?The M9 is NOT a 92FS, the M16 is not an AR15.

2- AR15s cannot be operated in the wilderness.

3- Since the US has never gone to war with an army of bears...the M16XX nor the M4XX nor the AR15 can be used for defend oneself while outside.

4- A bolt action carbine, for which the user has never trained with or owned prior to their camping trip is the best defesive firearm.

5- Bear spray is only good if you cant get to some other lethal weapon.

6- The 12ga shotgun can be used to go to war with a Nations army of Bears.

I'm outttttaaaa here... LOL

 

[two70]

Very interesting. I hike out west a lot and have relied on bear spray most of the time. Do you by chance have a link to the study? I would love to read it!

I knew someone was going to ask and I've been looking for it. I want to say it was either in an article in Sports Afield or on Ammoland but the only things I've found so far are a couple good articles on bear defense with handguns.

 

[bobjones223]

So...what have we learned...

1- Military designations alter the physical aspects and design of machinery. Even though they are made by the same company, act in the same way, the mere fact the Military calls it something different alters the molecular structure of the atoms into a completely different thing...um..OK..?The M9 is NOT a 92FS, the M16 is not an AR15.

2- AR15s cannot be operated in the wilderness.

3- Since the US has never gone to war with an army of bears...the M16XX nor the M4XX nor the AR15 can be used for defend oneself while outside.

4- A bolt action carbine, for which the user has never trained with or owned prior to their camping trip is the best defesive firearm.

5- Bear spray is only good if you cant get to some other lethal weapon.

6- The 12ga shotgun can be used to go to war with a Nations army of Bears.

I'm outttttaaaa here... LOL

Yes!

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

Lots of pretty good advice in here. One common theme is a large caliber handgun over a rifle. I'm not too ashamed to admit that I have girl arms and hands, and magnum rounds are a pain for me. Would a .45ACP be good against the previously mentioned? Mountain lions and black bears in particular. At this point, I'm thinking about running with a shotgun to have around the campsite, and maybe the ACP as my hiking gun.

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

Just throwing out ideas from top of my head:

►Ruger Scout Rifle in .450 BM

►CZ527 in .30RS

►Christensen AR-15s, Lightweights

►Ultra Compact XCR-M

►Pack Rifle, Survival .22lr

►Browning BLR, takedown variant

►Aero Survival Rifle, pistol calibers

Just some ideas for you to chew on. Hope all is well down there.

Lots of nice picks here. All is well Kirk. Still getting used to the terrain and the job, and I'm looking forward to hitting some trails to get away from it all.

 

[ibwaltb]

Best summary I've read in a long time. Thank you JJFII.

A buddy and I were elk hunting with a bow a couple weeks ago in Idaho. I carried a 357 snub - more for the noise than anything else, but then again we weren't in grizzly territory but only had black bears around. If you're not worried about weight and have the pack space...go to war with the 'Nation of army of Bears' and carry the 12ga. with slugs....game on with anything that goes bump-in-the-night

 

[blue2golf]

I'd recommend the Norinco JW-103 but we can't get those here.

 

[IndianaSoloMcfly]

1911 and mectech carbine conversion. Bring a 15 round stick. Put the carbine together before you go to bed. I unno

 

[IndianaSoloMcfly]

dupe

 

[smythe012]

Lots of pretty good advice in here. One common theme is a large caliber handgun over a rifle. I'm not too ashamed to admit that I have girl arms and hands, and magnum rounds are a pain for me. Would a .45ACP be good against the previously mentioned? Mountain lions and black bears in particular. At this point, I'm thinking about running with a shotgun to have around the campsite, and maybe the ACP as my hiking gun.

I carried 45 while hiking out west, before switching to 10mm. If you’re going that route, I would suggest 45 +p hardcast rounds from Buffalo Bore, bear mace and a bell to let them know you’re coming.

 

[Hohn]

This thread is a scarecrow convention with all the straw men I see.


An AR15 is a poor choice for all the reasons GGgreen mentioned. Think about it for a second: the design criteria for the AR have almost nothing to do with the design criteria that go into a close-in defensive weapon against dangerous animals. The AR was developed for high rates of fire, a range to 600m, a large ammo capacity, controllable full auto, and ability to carry as much as ammo as possible for a given weight. Which of these is germane to a hiking or camping weapon?

In my mind, nearly none of them. A good camping or hiking weapon must have:
1) Speed of deployment (time to first shot)
2) Sufficient accuracy
3) Sufficient terminal performance
4) Sufficient ammo capacity
5) Generally robust to the elements (it cannot stop because it got wet or a bit dirty.)

Is it not a little bit interesting that dangerous game rifles are often chambered in very powerful calibers, modest ammo capacity, and often are bolt action or (more commonly) a double rifle? Why a double rifle? A: instant follow up shot. Not three. Not thirty. Just one follow up.

One could argue that a short barrel coach gun with slugs would be very close to this idea. Two shots readily available, powerful enough for any mammal in NA.

Perhaps one step removed from this would be a hand cannon revolver. Something .44 mag or larger. I like the 460xvr with hard casts here, as the extra velocity is a good thing for stopping power.

A G40 might be a good choice here but I don't like it as a trail gun for a couple reasons: it's needlessly easy to ND because it has no manual safeties and things get jostled in a pack or camping/hiking. And has has a lot of capacity that you don't need to a caliber that is (IMO) marginal for critter defense. 10mm for hunting, yes-- for stopping Momma bear cold? Not for me. If I'm the predator, I'm willing to accept less firepower than when I'm the prey.

A far better choice would be a mare's leg in .44mag. Henry sells the Big Boy Mare's leg in .44 mag.

Generally, I'd say you want a shoulder weapon for best accuracy. But for PDW, you aren't going to be taking 50y+ shots. So gaining accuracy you don't need at the expense of packability you DO need, that's not a good tradeoff. That's why we slip the scout rifles and stick with short slug guns or hand cannons.

Justin