Best CC Caliber?

[nebulous]

I think it's more important as to where you hit someone, as to what caliber you use.

I think it's more important as to WHETHER you hit someone, as to what caliber you use. Choose the caliber you are most comfortable with and will train the most with. The more you train, the more likely you will be to hit your target in a high stress situation.

 

[Hohn]

Hits come in a couple kinds. This is my informal rating scale.

-- 1)Just got him mad
-- 2)slowed him down a bit
-- 3)really ruined his day
-- 4)DRT

Since the first rule is that only hits count, accuracy does matter most. I'd also argue that if you have enough caliber, the occurrence of #1 of any kind of hit is pretty rare. You get to skip past "go" and straight to "slowed him down a bit."

The trick is to be able to put enough rounds on target fast enough to get enough of the more serious hits to stop the threat. It might be a single .32 to the head. I might be a dozen .40s COM. You never know.

This is where the capacity discussion comes in. Are you carrying enough rounds to make the hits needed? If your hit rate is 20% better with 9mm than .40, then that extra 2 rounds or so is actually a LOT more firepower when translated into hits.

Total firepower then is caliber effectiveness*shooter accuracy*gun capacity. But that simple formula weights all the factors evenly. If you put coefficients on there, you'd have something more useful like 3(accuracy)*2(capacity)*1.5(ballistics of caliber).


A corollary to this idea that only hits count is that speed is overrated. As the cliche says, you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight.

Speed does matter, but IMO it really only matters a bunch for the first shot. If you are making hits (as you should be) and you're carrying a decent caliber (as you should be), then your follow up shots are building on at LEAST a "slowed him down" grade of hit. They are insurance.

JM2C

 

[PurdueBoilermaker]

Shot placement > caliber

 

[BehindBlueI's]

This is where the capacity discussion comes in. Are you carrying enough rounds to make the hits needed?

I've yet to come across a victim with an empty gun. I've had victims with a holstered gun, I've had victims with weapons that malfunctioned (Examples include a Llama 1911 that the grip safety failed to deactivate and things went downhill for the Llama owner and a suspect who was using some craptastic ammo that jumped crimp and locked his Taurus revolver up, also causing things to go south from there) Folks tend to run out of time before ammunition in most gun fights. More capacity is better, but I don't get too caught up in it if the gun suits my needs elsewise. There's a floor, I don't feel comfortable with something like the double tap, but its a rare gun fight where 5 didn't do it but 15 would have. I see some folks making the argument that more ammunition is required "these days" because of the prevalence of multiple suspect robberies. At first blush, this seems logical. My experience has been that you still run out of time, and run out of it faster, when confronting multiple suspects. Granted by pool of such cases is very shallow, I need to have a victim who was armed, who decided to draw, and who either prevailed or at least survived to tell the tale, and that's a rare combination. So far I've still yet to run across someone who emptied their gun. They were either shot or the aggressors were stopped/fled/some combination. Again, just to be clear, this is not an argument against increased capacity if all else is equal. I just wouldn't trade out of a gun I shoot well for a gun I shoot less well just because of capacity.

Speed does matter. Yes, its secondary to accuracy. Fast and accurate beats slow and accurate, though. Sometimes if you aren't fast enough its better just to leave it holstered.

 

[gregkl]

I've yet to come across a victim with an empty gun. I've had victims with a holstered gun, I've had victims with weapons that malfunctioned (Examples include a Llama 1911 that the grip safety failed to deactivate and things went downhill for the Llama owner and a suspect who was using some craptastic ammo that jumped crimp and locked his Taurus revolver up, also causing things to go south from there) Folks tend to run out of time before ammunition in most gun fights. More capacity is better, but I don't get too caught up in it if the gun suits my needs elsewise. There's a floor, I don't feel comfortable with something like the double tap, but its a rare gun fight where 5 didn't do it but 15 would have. I see some folks making the argument that more ammunition is required "these days" because of the prevalence of multiple suspect robberies. At first blush, this seems logical. My experience has been that you still run out of time, and run out of it faster, when confronting multiple suspects. Granted by pool of such cases is very shallow, I need to have a victim who was armed, who decided to draw, and who either prevailed or at least survived to tell the tale, and that's a rare combination. So far I've still yet to run across someone who emptied their gun. They were either shot or the aggressors were stopped/fled/some combination. Again, just to be clear, this is not an argument against increased capacity if all else is equal. I just wouldn't trade out of a gun I shoot well for a gun I shoot less well just because of capacity.

Speed does matter. Yes, its secondary to accuracy. Fast and accurate beats slow and accurate, though. Sometimes if you aren't fast enough its better just to leave it holstered.

Nice post. These are the statements that make me think even more about what to carry. I hear some talking like they are getting into Hollywood shoot outs. I guess some are military/LE and they need to be prepared for such a shootout, even if it never occurs.

I wonder though about myself. I understand anything can happen. However, do you think that for someone who doesn't really go out much at night, doesn't wander into the city much and stays away from known "bad" areas that I need to carry a gun with 10+ rounds? I have been thinking about what to carry. I have a FS M&P9. Lot's of rounds, enough caliber to get the job done but since I will carry concealed and it is not the easiest or most comfortable to carry, I keep looking at my snub nose, 5-shot .38 Special. I originally bought that to carry since I figured all I had to do is pull the trigger when needed. One thing I am considering though is practice time. I do see myself doing Steel Challenge and maybe one day IDPA, but I think it's important to be intimately familiar with whatever I carry. So that would mean shooting the snubby...a lot.

But now after reading so many threads on the subject I am starting to doubt that is enough "firepower".

I know this about myself. Using my gun will be a last resort to save lives. I am not looking for trouble and certainly not looking for a shootout.

BehindBlueI's, what advice would you give someone like me?

 

[Old_grunt]

10mm auto 24/7/365
Load my own rounds and currently I use 165g GS, 11.5g Blue Dot, CCI 350 large primer and Starline brass.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I have a FS M&P9. ... I keep looking at my snub nose, 5-shot .38 Special.

BehindBlueI's, what advice would you give someone like me?

Which do you shoot accurately the fastest? Ideally, that's the one you should carry. I understand sometimes circumstances dictate not carrying what you shoot best. That can range from employer policy to activity appropriate clothing. I don't carry my Sig when I'm jogging. There's just no practical way to do so.

I would be very hesitant to stop carrying a gun I'm better with because of ease of carry. Experiment with different holsters, carry belts, etc, and you'll find something that clicks for you. I spent over a year working IT carrying a concealed full sized 1911 and no one at the company knew. It can be done.

You know you a lot better than I know you. Can you shoot the snubby quickly and accurately at 15 yards and in? Can you do so on the move? Can you do so against a moving target? Snubs are hard to shoot, especially for newer shooters or those who don't practice often (not saying either applies to you, just as a general statement). Short sight radius, long and stiff trigger, marginal sights, it just doesn't add up to a easy to master package. You know, or can know, if you can shoot it well enough to rely on to save your life.

If you have access to a shot timer (or you have a smart phone and can get a timer app), than you can test and see for yourself if you have access to a range that will let you fire from the holster, move around, etc. like at an IDPA match. IDPA tends to have more targets and longer course of fire than 'real world' shootings because real world shootings would be boring for competition. Set up two targets. Go to the 7 yard line. Time yourself on holster from two shots on one target. Same with two targets, two shots on each. Move back 3 yards and repeat. Move back 3 yards and repeat. Go back to the 7. Put two on one target while stationary, put two on the other while moving. Move back 3 yards and repeat. Move back 3 yards and repeat.

While not flashy, this is a pretty good representation of an "average" gun fight. This doesn't take much ammo. It doesn't take much time. It is enlightening. You'll start to see where in your draw stroke you aren't smooth. You'll see if you are getting good hits, you'll see how long followup shots take, etc. You will then have real, observable, and measurable data to support the answer of "is this a gun I should carry to defend my own life?" If you can honestly say "yes" to the snub, then carry it if you choose.

 

[gregkl]

^^^^^Thanks! Based On That, I ShouldWork With My M&P.

 

[tbhausen]

Thanks, BehindBlueI's, this is some of the best advice I've ever seen here at INGO.

 

[ACC]

Best CC Caliber = What you are most comfortable shooting.

For me it is 9mm. I am accurate and quick with 9mm and i like carrying more than seven shots.

Glock 26 or Glock 19 depending on what I am wearing.

 

[Cherryspringer]

Wow. The 10mm really does some damage. My glock 20 hasn't really left the safe much but, I need to carry that one!

 

[sun]

My son is a .44 special fan which led me to look up its one shot stopping power.

44 Special Stopping Power

Here's a comprehensive pistol caliber chart that applies the Hatcher formula:

THE STOPPING POWER OF DIFFERENT HANDGUN CARTRIDGES

 

[Bapak2ja]

Well, the learning continues on .

Thanks to all.

 

[Gadgetmonster]

Good stuff. I learn a lot here on INGO. Really.

Sometimes I pick up details that make me chuckle like when BehindBlueI's said:

"and the whole holding the gun sideways thing. Yes, they still do it. Yes, they hit each other in the legs a lot."

That's funny right there.

 

[lucky4034]

Placement over caliber...

Got a Christmas bonus did ya?

 

[HistoryGuy]

I don't think caliber is as important as people think. I knew a guy who carried a Ruger mark II. I asked the natural question of, "Why are you carrying a .22? They have no stopping power." He just said he has yet to meet a person who could survive a .22 to the face or a few .22s to the chest. I'm getting ready to apply for my CCL, and my gun will be a .380.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

He just said he has yet to meet a person who could survive a .22 to the face or a few .22s to the chest.

Which is proof he has no idea what he's talking about. I've met many people who've survived both, and on bigger calibers than .22. Funny enough, there's a guy shot in the face on Indy's east side right now who's on his way to the hospital right now and he's quite alive. I have no idea what caliber, but you can figure its not SMALLER than a .22...

Even a "big" round to the face is no guarantee of a kill, but it sure ups the odds of both a kill and a stop. Pistol rounds ride the skull around more often than you'd think, but bigger calibers ring the person's bell hard enough they are usually incapacitated for a bit anyway. We recently had a guy take a 9mm to the noggin', and it knocked him out for a few minutes but he got up and was talking by the time first responders got there.

 

[Hohn]

Because I'm an enginerd, I think of in terms of penetration capability as approximated by sectional density and velocity. If you shoot a caliber that has enough power to thru & thru a thick skull or torso, it's powerful enough to do serious damage.

i highly doubt a .22 has the gas to penetrate a through and through when bone and muscle are included. IWBA says exiting through skin is about the same as 4"-6" of muscle penetration. Only after you have sufficient penetration does it make sense to go after larger hole size.

That's why I recommend fmj in weak (<.380) calibers. You must have penetration to incapacitate.

jmo, I'm no expert.

 

[in625shooter]

I don't think caliber is as important as people think. I knew a guy who carried a Ruger mark II. I asked the natural question of, "Why are you carrying a .22? They have no stopping power." He just said he has yet to meet a person who could survive a .22 to the face or a few .22s to the chest. I'm getting ready to apply for my CCL, and my gun will be a .380.

I know your referring to "That Guy" but he is misguided. I have seen MANY Federal inmates walking around (a few limping) that have been shot with 9mm, 40, 10mm, 357 and 44 mags, even 5,56 and 12 ga 00 buck. Many of those were in fact facial injuries. The only ones I haven't seen were 12 ga slugs and 308's. Many other Joe civilians have took hits with 22's and lived. Nothing is a guarantee no matter how "enlightened you think you are with your choice. Besides the whole head shot (by a handgun anyway) is really an overrated theory. Outside the small Medulla Oblongata or T zone you will probably only ring his bell and might not "stop it". The skull is tough and many times even center fire handgun rounds glance off and might not be fatal. Yes you might stop the threat but no guarantee. Yes 22's are easier to shoot but 22's are probably more prone to glancing off whether in or out of the T zone.

 

[HistoryGuy]

Which is proof he has no idea what he's talking about. I've met many people who've survived both, and on bigger calibers than .22. Funny enough, there's a guy shot in the face on Indy's east side right now who's on his way to the hospital right now and he's quite alive. I have no idea what caliber, but you can figure its not SMALLER than a .22...

Even a "big" round to the face is no guarantee of a kill, but it sure ups the odds of both a kill and a stop. Pistol rounds ride the skull around more often than you'd think, but bigger calibers ring the person's bell hard enough they are usually incapacitated for a bit anyway. We recently had a guy take a 9mm to the noggin', and it knocked him out for a few minutes but he got up and was talking by the time first responders got there.

The guy I talked to said it was his first carry gun. He's since up graded to, I think, a .38 or .357. I realized I forgot to make my main point in my post. The reason he carried it was because he had never shot anything more than a .22, but now that he's been at it a while he shoots the larger calibers.

My point is, the best round for self defense is the one you can shoot the best while you're hopped up on adrenalin. For me, its the .380; for JetGirl, I know its the .45 ACP; and now for the guy I know, its the .38 special.