Are You Liable?

[GuyRelford]

Okay, I was going to wait a few days to post another "legal quandary," but you folks did such a great job with the last one, I couldn't resist.

Here's the scenario: You are carrying OC all day, and when you get home, you go into your walk-in closet (where you have your gun safe) to put the gun into the safe for the evening, but your wife is in there picking out her shoes for the evening. There's no one else in the house, so you decide to just leave the firearm on your dresser in the bedroom - you can always put it away later. It's a 1911, it's loaded with Federal Hi-Shok hollow-points, and it's cocked and locked.

While you're taking your shower, your wife brings you a beer, which tastes pretty good to you after working hard all day. After getting out of the shower, you decide to sit on the deck and have several more beers with your wife. Then your next-door neighbor stops by and wants you to come over and see his new 64-inch HDTV - especially because the Colts game is about to come on - its Monday Night Football. Your wife decides to join you. You leave the house unlocked.

You're busy drinking beer and cheering the Colts to victory over the evil Patriots when your neighbor's 18 year-old kid, who just got out of jail on a felony drug charge, decides to check out your house while you're in his dad's living room watching the game. He finds your loaded gun on the dresser, puts it in his belt, and decides he's going to take down the local Village Pantry to score some cocaine money.

While robbing the store, he's surprised by a family walking into the store. He panics, and shoots a mom and two grade-school aged kids. They all die. The emergency-room physician appears on local TV and blames their deaths on the "super lethal" ammunition in the gun.

The husband/father of the victims hires a civil attorney to sue you for everything you own.

Are you liable?

 

[Mgderf]

In a word, YES!

Control of your own firearm is paramount. An unattended firearm, loaded or not, should be considered a liability!

 

[csaws]

I think not as it was stolen. Since said 18 y.o. has a history it could be used to show malice and intent and he entered your home without authorization, unlocked or not. However you should have locked it up prior to leaving the house, it only takes a second.

 

[wbjenks]

I agree, You are going to be in court for a long time. You will probably loose everything. Stolen or not, you are responsible. (even my umbrella extension would not cover this one)

 

[Bill of Rights]

Okay, I was going to wait a few days to post another "legal quandry," but you folks did such a great job with the last one, I couldn't resist.

Here's the scenario: You are carrying OC all day, and when you get home, you go into your walk-in closet (where you have your gun safe) to put the gun into the safe for the evening, but your wife is in there picking out her shoes for the evening. There's no one else in the house, so you decide to just leave the firearm on your dresser in the bedroom - you can always put it away later. It's a 1911, it's loaded with Federal Hi-Shok hollow-points, and it's cocked and locked.

While you're taking your shower, your wife brings you a beer, which tastes pretty good to you after working hard all day. After getting out of the shower, you decide to sit on the deck and have several more beers with your wife. Then your next-door neighbor stops by and wants you to come over and see his new 64-inch HDTV - especially because the Colts game is about to come on - its Monday Night Football. Your wife decides to join you. You leave the house unlocked.

You're busy drinking beer and cheering the Colts to victory over the evil Patriots when your neighbor's 18 year-old kid, who just got out of jail on a felony drug charge, decides to check out your house while you're in his dad's living room watching the game. He finds your loaded gun on the dresser, puts it in his belt, and decides he's going to take down the local Village Pantry to score some cocaine money.

While robbing the store, he's surprised by a family walking into the store. He panics, and shoots a mom and two grade-school aged kids. They all die. The emergency-room physician appears on local TV and blames their deaths on the "super lethal" ammunition in the gun.

The husband/father of the victims hires a civil attorney to sue you for everything you own.

Are you liable?

Morally, I would say yes, you are liable because you were negligent in not putting it away ASAP. It is there, however, I would say the liability ends.

Indiana does not (and should not) have a "safe storage" law, at least not one I could find.

The 18-year-old coke-head murderer is at fault for his actions. The gun owner had no way of knowing and no reason to suspect that he would come in... though I think if there was a known felon in the neighborhood, I would probably exercise a lot more care than the hypothetical owner showed. Would we fault the owner of a car that was stolen from it's owner's unlocked but closed garage and used either to run down three people on a sidewalk? Would we fault the owner if the car was stolen and used as a getaway car in a bank robbery?

As for the doc, it's easy enough to show him to be a moron. The "super-lethal" ammo is commonly available (or at least as common as any ammo is these days)self-defense ammo.

Can't wait to see the answers.

Thanks, Gunlawyer!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Steve]

You gotta believe that since the punk took the weapon without permission (as in STOLE it), your liabilty would end with filing a stolen weapon police report. However, if this poor misguided youth ( as his attorney would reference him as) commited the murders BEFORE you could report it stolen............makes me want to check my firearms locations right now.

D^%#, it hurts to think. Can't wait to see the outcome on this.

 

[haldir]

I am going to say no liability. Does a gun owner have a duty to not leave a loaded weapon in his own house? I don't think so. The whole idea of keeping firearms locked in a safe is a fairly new practice. Many if not most gun owners in the past (and still do) have kept loaded firearms available in their bedrooms and unattended. Even if they get past this, I would question whether the shooting of these people would be considered a foreseeable consequence of the negligent act.

 

[GuyRelford]

You gotta believe that since the punk took the weapon without permission (as in STOLE it), your liabilty would end with filing a stolen weapon police report. However, if this poor misguided youth ( as his attorney would reference him as) commited the murders BEFORE you could report it stolen............makes me want to check my firearms locations right now.

D^%#, it hurts to think. Can't wait to see the outcome on this.

Great question! Let's assume the shooting occurred before you even knew the gun was gone - let alone reported it stolen. You were still drinking beer and watching the 4th quarter of the game.

 

[Lucas156]

No legally not liable. The antigunners will be screamin your fault and guns are bad tho.

 

[Mgderf]

Great question! Let's assume the shooting occurred before you even knew the gun was gone - let alone reported it stolen. You were still drinking beer and watching the 4th quarter of the game.

Stretch this out to the worst case scenario, shooting occurred BEFORE you realized the gun was gone, AND THE PUNK RETURNS YOUR GUN!

NOW what do you do when LE finds the "murder weapon" in your possession?

 

[Mgderf]

NEVER, leave ANY firearm unattended!

 

[Lucas156]

Stretch this out to the worst case scenario, shooting occurred BEFORE you realized the gun was gone, AND THE PUNK RETURNS YOUR GUN!

NOW what do you do when LE finds the "murder weapon" in your possession?

Call the cops don't just accept it gracefully.

 

[GuyRelford]

Stretch this out to the worst case scenario, shooting occurred BEFORE you realized the gun was gone, AND THE PUNK RETURNS YOUR GUN!

NOW what do you do when LE finds the "murder weapon" in your possession?

Valid point! Let's say the bad guy was arrested at the scene, your gun still in his hand. And the first thing he says to the responding officer is, "Man, it was too easy. The house was unlocked, and the gun was just sitting here on the dresser, begging me to take it."

 

[tharlow514]

I agree that he is not liable since there is no "safe storage" law in Indiana. No law was broken by the owner. Although, I don't know why anyone would leave the house without their carry piece! That should be a crime This goes along the lines of claims that gun makers are liable for victims of gun shootings.

 

[Mgderf]

Call the cops don't just accept it gracefully.

In my "worst case scenario", I meant the bad guy does the crime, and returns your gun to your house, ALL without your knowledge!
Now, sometime in the future, you are found to have a "murder weapon" in your possession, ALL without your knowledge!

 

[Beau]

No.

The firearm was obtained in the commission of a crime. While the owner may have used poor judgment in firearm storage he was committing no crime by having an unlocked firearm in his home. At least not that I'm aware of.

Spin it another way. You leave the garage door open. Someone comes in takes a gas can, oily rag and a propane torch. Uses the items to sling a nice sized gas bomb through his ex girlfriends window. Should you be liable for his actions?

How many people leave their car running unattended while they run back into the house or into a store? If someone stole your car and then ran over someone should you be liable? After all you left the keys in it and left it running.

 

[techres]

Since the thief was 18, I think your liability is low. Had be been a minor, there would be far worse implications - from supplying a firearm to a minor (potentially) to simply not keeping the firearm from kids (i.e. left it loaded, safety off and next to the Wii that you keep on the front lawn).

The only real criminal risk might be a manslaughter based on admitted neglignece and that could only happen if you are stupid enough to yell out "OH CRUD, I meant to lock that gun up!!!" or if the prosecutor shot the moon with just he right jury and proved that you lock up all your other guns, but you just forgot to do so this time. I.E. if you meant to leave out the gun it is ok, but if you neglected to do and there are dead bodies on the deck now. But that would be a HUGE leap.

That is morally, and criminally.

As a matter of civil law, you likely will be toast. All that has to be proven is that you HAVE a method for securing firearms but did not think to do so this time. Furthermore, as above, perhaps you meant to do so but did not think to do it, etc.

Your words will mean a great deal.

 

[jsharmon7]

I'm not quite clear on the question. Am I liable for the gun being used for murder or am I liable for carrying "super lethal" hollow point ammunition?

I don't think I'm liable for my handgun being used in a murder as it was stolen from my home by an adult with a criminal record. I didn't sell it to him, I didn't loan it to him, I didn't even give him permission to be in my home in the first place. If he were to steal a steak knife and use it to stab someone I wouldn't expect to be held liable.

On the second possible, I also don't think I'd be held liable for carrying "super lethal" hollow point ammunition. I think an attorney could show that it's a commonly carried ammunition. Also, precedent was set in 1996 in the lawsuit against Black Talon. The claims were dismissed because the ammunition was not defective in design.

So, no liability on both (possible) counts is my humble opinion.

 

[csaws]

Stretch this out to the worst case scenario, shooting occurred BEFORE you realized the gun was gone, AND THE PUNK RETURNS YOUR GUN!

NOW what do you do when LE finds the "murder weapon" in your possession?

Prints, lineup, alibi, video surveillance (most stop and robs have it) lots and lots of things to show you were not in the area or at the scene of the crime.

 

[csaws]

I agree that he is not liable since there is no "safe storage" law in Indiana. No law was broken by the owner. Although, I don't know why anyone would leave the house without their carry piece! That should be a crime This goes along the lines of claims that gun makers are liable for victims of gun shootings.

Reason #1 Alcohol