Advisory on the recent Carcano 1891/24 TS carbines from TW Imports, sold by Buds

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  • Ark

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    https://imgur.com/a/Juohq6M

    XsrywUD.jpg


    https://imgur.com/a/Juohq6M

    Full album in the link. Aim point marked in ballpoint pen on the target, utilizing the correct Carcano sight picture at only 15 yards. Ammo is correct sized .268" bullets, 139gn from PPU on my own medium-power handloads. At the bottom of the album is a group from my other cavalry carbine, same ammo, same distance.

    Bore didn't look that bad on inspection, pitted all the way down but still had rifling. This rifle was originally a M91 long rifle, but was converted by the arsenal into a carbine before they started producing carbines from scratch. They're known to have some accuracy issues due to the gain-twist rifling being cut short, but 139gn is a lighter bullet than what was originally issued. The barrel crown will swallow the bullet down to just over 1/8" from the cannelure. Looks like the bore is simply too shot out to hit the broad side of a barn. I didn't even try at 50.

    In the second group in the album, I actually count seven holes in the target after six rounds fired. I wonder if the bore was so bad that a bullet actually separated, or maybe it took a piece of metal downrange with it. I dunno, after those 12 rounds I was through wasting ammo on it. Date code on the barrel is 1897, it's old even by Carcano standards.

    Buds issued a paid shipping label and a full refund, as the guns are now out of stock. But, others of the same TW Imports batch are still floating around. I would probably avoid the ones with long rifle-style rear sights, and instead buy one of the rifles originally built as carbines post-WW1.
     

    Ark

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    Wow... that looks like major key-holing if I'm seeing what I think I am.

    Oh yeah. F*** yeah. I've never really experienced real deal keyholing, but this was all at 15 yards. Off a bench and a bag rest. They say "patterns like a shotgun" but my 500 will put nine pellets in a tighter spread than that rifle at 15.

    If I hadn't have hung the large paper behind the target, I would have gone nuts trying to figure out why it wasn't on paper. At 50 yards I'm pretty sure it's not hitting the berm, let alone the target. Really happy I decided to try up close first, I was anticipating nothing more than confirming sight picture and whether it tended toward low or high.
     

    DangerousDave

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    I've always been told to stay away from the long rifles that had been converted to carbines. I've always heard that those converted ,had sight issues. Most people had to put taller front sights on them to stay on paper.
    I've also heard that when a certain part gets worn on the bolt , that the firing pin can come loose and come back into your eye. You are lucky you survived shooting that thing. No wonder the Italians lost the war.
     

    Ark

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    I've always been told to stay away from the long rifles that had been converted to carbines. I've always heard that those converted ,had sight issues. Most people had to put taller front sights on them to stay on paper.
    I've also heard that when a certain part gets worn on the bolt , that the firing pin can come loose and come back into your eye. You are lucky you survived shooting that thing. No wonder the Italians lost the war.

    They did eventually figure out that lopping the end off a gain-twist barrel with a hacksaw wasn't a good idea. The later carbines were build from scratch and had standard rifling. I find my cav carbine to be a good shooter with a decent action, a slick en bloc system, and an overall footprint almost as small as an M1 carbine. This particular 125-year-old rifle turned out to be a turd, but there is merit to the later carbines. Ian from Forgotten Weapons is a big defender of them.

    That's pretty bad. How's the crown? What's the empty brass look like?

    Pretty standard crown for an old gun. I stuffed a .268 bullet into the muzzle and it swallowed it almost right to the cannelure. Rifling erodes from the ends in, so I was hoping that the middle of the barrel might have some meat left, but with that gain-twist the last few inches are doing most of the spin work. If it at least shot okay I might have thought about finding someone to counterbore it. But yeah it's screwed, and lord knows I ain't replacing the barrel on a $250 Carcano.

    Brass looks fine. This load is .268" 139gn FMJBTs loaded to a hair slower than PPU factory ammo, nothing hot or high pressure.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    I've got a few Carcanos and they do okay. My 91 carbine is a rifle that was cut down (still has the rifle sights) but it's in a Mannlicher stock. I have a TS 38 but it's been re-chambered to 8mm Mauser. That little bugger kicks like a mule.

    I also have a Vetterli Carcano M1870/87/15. Longest rifle I own. Barely fits in my tallest gun cabinet. Love the look of it though. It's got kind of a "steam punk" feel to it.

    oKcucRE.jpg

    uwg3RGO.jpg
     

    Ark

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    The OG Carcanos definitely have that musket length to them. I'd probably buy one if I had anywhere to put it.

    I know I've seen an 8mm rechambered carbine for sale once or twice. Does 8mm fit on those en bloc clips?
     

    DangerousDave

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    I can remember back in the 70's I bought a 91 long rifle from Springfield Sporters out of Penn Run, Penn. for the sum of $25. The inside of the bore looked like a sewer pipe. Couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with it. I have had some mod. 38 carbines since that were fairly accurate. They are still a pretty neat little rifle with a lot of history.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    The OG Carcanos definitely have that musket length to them. I'd probably buy one if I had anywhere to put it.

    I know I've seen an 8mm rechambered carbine for sale once or twice. Does 8mm fit on those en bloc clips?
    Yes and no. They do fit, but it's tight and requires a little modification and I don't think they drop free anymore (I haven't shot it in awhile and don't remember). There have been some internet rumors floating around about them blowing up, but I've not had that experience. Not sure if I'd fire Turk surplus out of them, but I think I shot Yugo and/or Romanian surplus out of mine with no issues.
     

    Ark

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    Yes and no. They do fit, but it's tight and requires a little modification and I don't think they drop free anymore (I haven't shot it in awhile and don't remember). There have been some internet rumors floating around about them blowing up, but I've not had that experience. Not sure if I'd fire Turk surplus out of them, but I think I shot Yugo and/or Romanian surplus out of mine with no issues.

    After breaking it down for the cleanup and getting a look at how surprisingly little meat there actually is on that chamber and barrel, I would be leery of boring that guy out for 8mm. Not a gun I'd want to put six rounds of that Turkish surplus down.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    After breaking it down for the cleanup and getting a look at how surprisingly little meat there actually is on that chamber and barrel, I would be leery of boring that guy out for 8mm. Not a gun I'd want to put six rounds of that Turkish surplus down.

    Chicken. :stickpoke: I figure God gave me two hands and two eyes for a reason - so I'd have a spare of each! :):
     

    Gunaria

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    Well those short Carcano's were never that accurate to begin with. That's one of the reasons the Italians went back to the longer barrels Carcano's.
     
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