accident or negligence ?

[henry0reilly]

One another forum there is currently a hot debate on the unintentional discharge of firearms and whether they are accidents or the result negligence. I thought it might be interesting to get the Hoosier perspective.

My first firearm was a Winchester 121Y. I was 12 or 13 years old. After I shot it I took the bolt out to clean from the breech. The next time I went out to shoot it fired as soon as I closed the bolt. I was shocked. I loaded another round and aimed in a safe direction as I closed the bolt and it fired again.

We returned the rifle to the gun shop who sent it in for repair. What had happened was when I reassembled it I got the extractor clips reversed, causing the malfunction.

Even though I was negligent in failing to reassemble the rifle properly I would still call this an accidental discharge.

Was Winchester negligent in the design of the rifle or for failing to put a warning in the instructions?

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

In the instance you've posted...

I think you nailed it. Your negligence (ignorance?) greatly enhanced the chance for a true accidental discharge.

Generally speaking: A malfunction of the firearm = accidental. A malfunction of the person = negligent.

I've almost been involved in the former, I've had a latter.

-J-

 

[rbrthenderson]

No, I consider all of them negligent discharges. If you aren't sure how to take something apart, don't take it apart. An accidental discharge would occur if the gun, by itself without being modified or touched, discharged a round. In the instance you described, it was a human error and therefore negligent care of the firearm caused a discharge.

Just my though.

 

[Stschil]

I wouldn't call it negligence on Winchesters' fault as you had a functioning firearm prior to your cleaning it. I wouldn't go so far as to say your were negligent either, but the problem was caused by improper reassembly.

I would suggest adding a functions check to your reassembly routine after every breakdown. This probably would have caught the issue prior to having a round in the chamber.

 

[gabrigger]

No negligence on Winchester's part. Definitely a learning opportunity for you.

 

[Yup!]

Again, precisely why you never point any weapon at anything you aren't willing to destroy. Assume every gun is always loaded. Then when you have an ND at, worst, it's a police report, rather than a funeral.

I'd say there are varying degrees of negligence though. there is a huge difference between what the OP wrote and the guy who shoots himself in the class room with his "glock 40"

If I'm at the range, with the weapon pointed in a safe direction and get surprised by an ND, I can accept that, learn and move on (accidental discharge) If I'm being stupid with the gun rules, have a ND at the wrong place and time, shame on me!

If no one was ever placed in any danger because of safe firearm handling, it's an accidental discharge. If people were potentially in danger, it's ND.

 

[eldirector]

I think the word "accident" is just over-used in our no-fault society. No one wants to own up that they screwed up.

Same with car "accidents". That vast majority of collisions are caused by a person. Rarely does a car start itself, shift into gear, and go run into something all on its own.

If the firearm goes off without any human intervention - accident. For instance, the sear fails on a cocked gun.
If it goes off because of something a person did (wrong) - negligence. For instance, the firearm was assembled incorrectly.

 

[Yup!]

I can't imagine the actual term being the difference in any case where a firearm was discharged at the wrong time and place. You carry/own it, you are responsible for it. AD or ND.

 

[IndianaGTI]

Negligent. You assembled the firearm negligently. You either knew or should have known the proper way to assemble the firearm if you were the one doing it.

 

[mike8170]

To me, most all are negligent discharges. I will give accidental in the event of a slam fire, especially the 249 saw, (wish I had one now) when the butt strikes the ground and causes the bolt to release. Until the problem was resolved, my SAW gunners could not have a round on the tray until ready to put rounds down range. I also worry about soft primers in my military semi-auto's, though I haven't had one do it yet. If I was to guess, I would say 95% or even higher discharges are negligence.

 

[1946]

My opinion.........Negligent, something I have/had some control over the results. Accident, something I had no control over the results. I.E. Lightning strike.

 

[JoshuaW]

If you are following all the safety rules, then and only then can an accidental happen. The firearm would have to fire itself with virtually no human intervention. Everything else is negligence.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Seems like a couple of layers of contributory negligence. You were negligent in not paying close enough attention to how it came apart to put it back together right, but it's kind of skeevy of a manufacturer to put out something where it's even possible to reassemble it incorrectly, especially creating an issue like this.

 

[Arickosmo]

There was a HUGE negligent on I-65 this afternoon and I was late getting my kids. So, in dialing my wife, I negligently dialed work.

 

[sloughfoot]

Your choice of which word to use is totally dependent on your self honesty and inner voice.

Unless someone else has to determine the correct word because somebody got hurt as a result. That is called a judgement after the fact.

That is my opinion on this matter.

 

[hoosierdoc]

The next time I went out to shoot it fired as soon as I closed the bolt. I was shocked. I loaded another round and aimed in a safe direction as I closed the bolt and it fired again.

Where was it pointed the first time that you loaded the rifle?
I know, splitting hairs a bit, but that's what is all about

 

[JohnP82]

I pretty much always use the term negligent dicscharge.
Accidental discharge almost makes it sound like it is okay since accidents happen.
Sure, I agree there can be a truely accidental discharge caused by a firearm malfunction, but even in those cases all of the rules should still be being followed so no harm was done. Even a truely accidental discharge can then become negligent. If while at the range your firearm malfunctioned and had an accidental discharge and you shot the guy standing next to you on the firing line then you were negligent because the weapon was not pointed in a safe direction.
Just my on the topic

 

[henry0reilly]

Where was it pointed the first time that you loaded the rifle?
I know, splitting hairs a bit, but that's what is all about

I was facing towards the empty cornfield where I had set up my target.

Seems like a couple of layers of contributory negligence. You were negligent in not paying close enough attention to how it came apart to put it back together right, but it's kind of skeevy of a manufacturer to put out something where it's even possible to reassemble it incorrectly, especially creating an issue like this.

The Winchester model 121, 121Y, and 121 Deluxe were produced from 1967 to 1973. I've wondered if the model was discontinued because of this problem.

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

The Winchester model 121, 121Y, and 121 Deluxe were produced from 1967 to 1973. I've wondered if the model was discontinued because of this problem.[/QUOTE]

That's entirely possible. I mean, as an engineer, its my job to foresee things like that, but we're only human. The responsible thing to do, when you realize something like this, is to redesign and recall, or at least stop producing the product. Good on you for following the safety rules while it was malfunctioning, so the "whatever" discharge caused no harm. I think the functional distinction between accidental and negligent is most likely to be a legal construct that most of us could not resolve sensibly, so we shouldn't try to wrap our minds around it. It will drive us insane. It goes off when it wasn't intended, for whatever reason. The more careful we are, the less likely that will happen, but sometimes it really is out of our control. Keep doing your best.