AAR: Mindset Laboratory Flashlight Combatives 12-4-11

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  • esrice

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    I first met Shay VanVlymen back in 2008 when INGO first opened its doors. He was a fellow Moderator with a background as a Tactical Response instructor who later served as their President. In 2009, after hanging up both his INGO Mod hat and TR hat, he formed his own training company Mindset Laboratory.

    With a background based in Martial Arts, Shay has a very holistic approach to training. Although this course was specific in nature, his approach is one considering both mind and body. If there are "evangelists" in the training world, he is at the top of that list. Every social encounter I've ever had with Mr. VanVlymen has included the question "so, why haven't you come to class with me yet?"

    I finally ran out of excuses. :D

    Students arrived at the indoor training facility between 8:30a and 9a, and the classroom portion started promptly at 9am. We had a small class size (3 students, 2 instructors) which made for excellent discussions and lots of training time. In attendance were INGOers esrice, VERT, and MangoTango. The largest class Shay teaches is capped at just 8 students.

    We started by introducing ourselves and backgrounds, and then moved into a safety lecture. I tend to first judge a training outfit by the thoroughness of its safety lecture, and Mindset Labs' is top-notch. Not only did we go over a complete medical action plan, but we later conducted pat-downs and were wanded prior to entering the actual training environment. I felt safe the entire time.

    Flashlight Combatives is a seemingly niche course designed for folks who need a force option in non-permissive environments somewhere between empty hands and edged weapons. I say "seemingly" because I now realize that this material would be beneficial to EVERYONE-- from gun-toters to grandmas, teenagers to tactical ninjas. The information was not rocket science, was not difficult to incorporate into daily life, and was plenty effective along a wide array of assaults and situations.

    The biggest portion of the "tactical puzzle" is mindset, and the classroom portion was heavy in this regard. We covered not only the mindset of the good guy, but also of the bad guy who just got a face full of light. We addressed the non-threatening nature of a flashlight, and why that is its key advantage in many aspects. Cooper's Color Codes of Awareness were also presented.

    The core of the course is the flashlight, and what advantages it offers its user in terms of utility, blinding light, and striking ability. Oddly enough, we didn't cover desirable flashlight attributes until after our first round against the pads. I later realized how much talking this saved the instructors, as we figured out VERY QUICKLY which features worked and which ones caused problems.

    Anyone whose known Shay for more than 5 minutes probably knows his distaste for "clicky" tailcaps on flashlights. Although I had intellectually disagreed with his position on the matter, I got a chance to see first-hand the disadvantage such clickology offers. I liken a simple push-button tailcap to the manual-of-arms of a Glock, and a clicky tailcap to a 1911. They can both get the job done, but using the clicky tailcap requires the user to incorporate an additional step into the procedure (such as flicking off a thumb safety) which can become problematic under stress. It sounds petty, but doing it while hitting pads is enough to quickly see how easily it can become muffed. Unfortunately Surefire is the only game in town with such switchology, and their offering that also contains the other features that are personally desirable runs about $200 (Surefire LX2 Lumamax).

    The course format was broken into alternating blocks of classroom material and practical applications of the techniques taught. This not only kept student fatigue at bay, but it gave us time to evaluate what we learned in the "warehouse" (the training environment). We broke for lunch around Noon (Subway) and resumed back in the warehouse at 1pm.

    I snapped some pictures and videos to give INGOers a better perception of what actually happens in a class like this.

    Shay wands VERT before entering the warehouse.

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    Demo lights- check. Spare batteries- check. Training analogs- check. Hello Kitty Bandaids- check.

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    Power bar in tactical power bar pocket- check.

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    We started out learning a basic index and a basic strike. Luckily for me I already use a neck/jaw index when using a light while shooting a firearm, so this method incorporated seamlessly into what I'm already used to. I love it when one technique works across many platforms. :yesway:

    We tested and tried each technique with a training partner holding a pad. Each student got a chance to not only strike, but to be on the receiving end of strikes.

    We then progressively moved to 1-2 combination strikes, and incorporating a kick into our initial strike.

    Here's MangoTango kicking and striking her way through an attacker.

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    VERT working on the mechanics of kick-strike-strike.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTXVCw4tIOw

    Toward the end of the day we put everything we had learned together against a live attacker in a FIST suit. We each went for 2 30-second rounds and 1 final 45-second round. This is where the learning REALLY took place.

    For each of us, our first round effectiveness was HORRIBLE. For me, all I saw was a flailing black suit. I was hesitant to strike and unsure of my targeting areas. Andy (Mr. FIST suit) was going super easy on me and I was still getting pummeled. I felt completely out of control of the situation and everything happened very quickly.

    With the helpful critique of Shay and the other students I was able to adapt my technique and I started seeing improvements immediately. This held true for the other two students as well.

    Here is VERT going at a 30-second round with Andy.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGo1ZwdLiaI

    And MangoTango taking her turn.

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsAF0BehL7g

    The final round was increased to 45-seconds. Although this fatigued me more than the others, I felt MUCH better about my personal performance. I felt more in control of the situation, and my perception of time slowed down, allowing me to make more conscience decisions. The same held true for VERT and MangoTango, as Andy commented the the difference between our first round fights and our last round fights were like night and day.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ov-IPR2Ws

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWXKIWPp6_Q

    I feel like I got much more than what I paid for in this class. The opportunity to test out techniques in near-real speed is invaluable. I learned more about myself than I had known prior to walking through the classroom door. I will be taking more Mindset Laboratory courses in the future. I'm especially interested in his force-on-force offerings coming up in 2012. Be sure to check out course announcements at Mindset Lab | Real Training + Real Testing and right here in the INGO T&T subforum.

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    Feel free to post your questions or comments here in this thread. I'd be glad to answer them as a student, and I'm sure Shay could answer them as the instructor.

    :ingo:
     
    Last edited:

    VERT

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    Very nice AAR Evan! As always very through and excellent pictures to give good illustration. I am going to simply copy and modify a comment that I wrote in the other class announcement thread.

    Shay did an excellent job presenting the material. The class was well thought out and well organized. I especially enjoyed hearing Shay's philosophy on training and freely giving his opinions. I can honestly say that after an 8 hour class I am not a martial artist or ready to go start bar fights, but I do feel better prepared to confront a determined attacker if need be. Hopefully with a little more practice I can develop muscle memory that will allow me to maintain a good cheek index and core position, cover my head, and make a directed strike. Even better would be to use light to avoid a confrontation altogether. Yes the concepts are simple but a person really needs to face the Fist Suit to see how they would react. Lets face it most of us have not been on the receiving end of a punch or had a gun pointed at us. Is this the same as the real thing? No, but it is a close as simulation will safely allow.

    Personally I found the techniques in this class to be more useful in my day to day life then those that involve the deployment of a firearm.

    1) Carry a gun if appropriate and a light always
    2) Maintain a good cheek weld
    3) Keep fresh batteries in the light
    4) Clicky Tailcaps and crenellated bezels are not needed in a defensive light.
     

    GBuck

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    1) Carry a gun if appropriate and a light always
    2) Maintain a good cheek weld
    3) Keep fresh batteries in the light
    4) Clicky Tailcaps and crenellated bezels are not needed in a defensive light.
    On point 4, are they just not needed or are they taught to be detractors?
     

    Shay

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    On point 4, are they just not needed or are they taught to be detractors?

    Clicky tailcaps and sharp, spiky bezels are negative features on a defensive flashlight.

    Evan covered the clicky tailcap issue pretty well. Basically, it takes your mind off the fight when you are worried about your light being on or off. It sounds simple, but under stress, it isn't.

    The short version on knife flashlights is that they:
    1. are more likely to have your flashlight declared a weapon by some over-zealous TSA goon
    2. open you up to criminal and civil liability for little added benefit
    3. shred your clothes, couch and car seats.
    4. expose you to the risk of blood-borne pathogens from the dirt bag you're fighting

    I have strong opinions about what features are positive and negative on defense lights. One of the benefits of being an instructor is I get to not only share my point of view, but also show students why what I'm saying is correct. Esrice now knows the issues with clicky tailcaps because he had to fight through using one for the class. Before that experience, it was purely academic.
     

    Shay

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    Thank you to VERT and ESRICE and Julie for spending the day putting out the effort to make yourselves safer. The BEST way to get better is to learn and then do and then test. The improvement from start to finish was fantastic and while I didn't make you ninjas, I do know that you now make better decisions under stress.

    Buy a good light. Refresh your batteries. Carry your flashlights every day, every where. Train like you might need to someday use what you learn.

    My 2012 schedule was posted this week, so I look forward to seeing you in another class soon. Hint: one of the students from this weekend's class already registered for Intro to Force on Force and it wasn't either of you...
     

    lovemachine

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    Shay,

    Does it matter which class you take first? I'd like to take this flashlight class in March, but I see you have the Intro to FoF in February.
     

    esrice

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    4. expose you to the risk of blood-borne pathogens from the dirt bag you're fighting

    This was a real thought-provoker for me. Shay made the point that a sharp bezel won't cause enough hydraulic blood loss to incapacitate (like a bullet or knife wound can), so why bother with any blood loss at all? The last thing I need is some bloody psychopath on top of me bleeding into my eyes and mouth. :puke:Strike bezels have several negative consequences and no positives (other than they do look mean ;)).
     

    VERT

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    I made some notes below.

    Clicky tailcaps and sharp, spiky bezels are negative features on a defensive flashlight.

    Evan covered the clicky tailcap issue pretty well. Basically, it takes your mind off the fight when you are worried about your light being on or off. It sounds simple, but under stress, it isn't.

    I never thought a lot about this until this class. In fact I really liked my clicky tailcap. It works very well for me in my day to day activities of using a light. It did not however work worth a darn in a stress situation. Also after repeated strikes it stopped working. A quick twist got it going again, but I lost use of my light temporarily. Also my light defaults to bright while other lights went from low to high. I think this would work much better.

    The short version on knife flashlights is that they:
    1. are more likely to have your flashlight declared a weapon by some over-zealous TSA goon
    Very real problem and one reason my SureFire defender was not on my person last year when I had to go to Mexico. Have to go again in February so I am going to try to scrape a bit of money together for an LX2 Lumamax.
    2. open you up to criminal and civil liability for little added benefit
    I could see this happening. But people carry knives and guns as well. Liability will always be a problem. I will say that my employee handbook says no weapons and my flashlight looks like a weapon.
    3. shred your clothes, couch and car seats.
    I carry an E2DL Defender every day. Never leave home without it. All of my clothes look fine. I will admit to you that I wear jeans from the uniform company. They are lose with large pockets and if I tear them up I turn them in and get another pair. I can see how this can be a problem but it honestly is not for me.
    4. expose you to the risk of blood-borne pathogens from the dirt bag you're fighting
    yuck! Yeah this would be bad. Zombie brains on the flashlight knife is not cool!

    I will admit that I am going to get another light ASAP and another for my wife. These will not have a cliky cap or "strike bezel". So yes Shay you did get through to me.
     

    jblomenberg16

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    Just a question to clarify the "clicky tail cap" definition. Is that defined as the tail cap clicks "on", and then "off" with pressing and releasing, or it is talking about multi-function lights that require multiple clicks to get to a certain mode.


    I ask because if it is the first definition, I assume (I know...not good to assume) a non-clicky tail cap then has only an "on" switch that is turned on and stays on by constant pressure.
     

    VERT

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    Just a question to clarify the "clicky tail cap" definition. Is that defined as the tail cap clicks "on", and then "off" with pressing and releasing, or it is talking about multi-function lights that require multiple clicks to get to a certain mode.


    I ask because if it is the first definition, I assume (I know...not good to assume) a non-clicky tail cap then has only an "on" switch that is turned on and stays on by constant pressure.

    I would say it includes either. My light will come on with light pressure on the switch. By fully depressing the switch the light "clicks" on. The problem is once it is on you can't get it to turn off in a fight. Seems easy enough but you can't. Plus under stress you tend to mash it on. Multi function would be even worse. For example my current light has high mode with one click and low mode with two clicks. So if you are trying to get it on and off quickly you might have low light when you want high.

    Not sure how the high, low, strobe, twist twice type in a code enter a pin type light would work under stress? My guess is that it would suck.

    What you want to buy is a light with a tailcap that has a momentary switch. Press to turn on, release to turn off. The cap then twists for the light to stay on for utility purposes. That is fine because you won't be under stress when turning on your light to look behind the couch for the babies binky.

    Oh by the way I will cut you a great deal on a SureFire Defender! :D I know you like how bright it is.
     

    esrice

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    Just a question to clarify the "clicky tail cap" definition.

    "Clicky" tailcaps are those that "click" for constant on. Fenix lights are such that you must get through the first "click" before ANY light comes on. I thought my Streamlight would be acceptable because light comes on momentarily before the click, and the click just keeps it on. Unfortunately I could not physically strike something without actually clicking the light. It would happen every time.

    The lights Shay recommends do not "click" at all. Thumb on-- light. Thumb off-- no light. Need constant light? It takes a separate and deliberate twist of the tailcap. The LX2 has the added benefit of a "low" mode when the button is first pushed, and then goes to "high" as you mash down on it (which is what you will do under stress, thereby bypassing the low mode altogether).
     

    rhino

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    "Clicky" tailcaps are those that "click" for constant on. Fenix lights are such that you must get through the first "click" before ANY light comes on. I thought my Streamlight would be acceptable because light comes on momentarily before the click, and the click just keeps it on. Unfortunately I could not physically strike something without actually clicking the light. It would happen every time.

    Only their utility lights function that way. Their "tactical" models (TK prefixes and I think one other prefix) have momentary "on" for the initial pressure, then you push harder to get the click for constant "on."
     

    Shay

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    Only their utility lights function that way. Their "tactical" models (TK prefixes and I think one other prefix) have momentary "on" for the initial pressure, then you push harder to get the click for constant "on."

    Either one still fits the definition of "clicky".
     

    VERT

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    Only their utility lights function that way. Their "tactical" models (TK prefixes and I think one other prefix) have momentary "on" for the initial pressure, then you push harder to get the click for constant "on."

    Yep that is the way my SureFire E2DL works. I thought it was the bees knees so to speak. Shay showed me the error of my ways. Trust me it didn't work that well. I am not getting rid of my current light but I do plan on getting something else. Maybe not right away but soon.
     

    Shay

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    Soooo....
    My SureFire C2 is good to go then?!

    I don't own one, but it looks good from what the google tells me.

    The tactically-correct pushbutton tailcap switch provides secure, ergonomic activation control: press for momentary-on, twist for constant-on.

    We're getting wrapped around the gear aspect of flashlight combatives, but to be honest I'd rather we focused on the tactics and techniques. Just about any light will do, if YOU will do.

    Just like with guns, the difference between a good light and a great light is pretty slim. It does make a difference, but not for most people because without training they won't use either one very effectively.

    If you're in the market to get a good defense high intensity white light, my vote is for a non-clicky tailcap and an unsharp bezel.
     

    VERT

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    Huh...
    So I would be able to take a class without having to buy anything... :dunno:

    I can't speak for Shay but he had a bunch of lights available for demonstration. I would say bring your current light, figure out what works and what doesn't and then go from there. Hind sight 20/20 I would have taken the class first and then bought the light. I personally would not go out and buy a $150 light only to figure out it is not what you really want. Ask me how I know! Actually I was very happy with my current light (and still actually, it is in my pocket right now) but I see other features that I think might work better. But my current light is servicable and will work just fine for now.

    Only part of the class actually used our lights. We actually used dummy lights to practice a lot of the strikes.
     

    Shay

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    Huh...
    So I would be able to take a class without having to buy anything... :dunno:

    Most of my classes can be taken by showing up with a pen and paper. If I don't provide all the equipment anyway, I have loaners of just about everything.
     
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