A National Divorce

[BigRed]

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What morals are we talking about? I see an awful lot of "red" states that are not exactly beacons of virtue.

Not that there are any such things as completely red and blue states.

How's this for a messy divorce?

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You're right.
It's too messy.
Let's continue the path.

I wonder what a color coded map of the British empire would have looked like around the mid 18th century.

Maybe a color coded map of the Roman empire would be worth a look.

I wonder what a color coded Canadian map would look like.

 

[Route 45]

You're right.
It's too messy.
Let's continue the path.

I wonder what a color coded map of the British empire would have looked like around the mid 18th century.

Maybe a color coded map of the Roman empire would be worth a look.

I wonder what a color coded Canadian map would look like.

What's the point of dividing up the United States on "morality" grounds, when it's obvious that some of the so-called "red" states are some of the biggest offenders? Do you know how to read maps?

 

[BigRed]

What's the point of dividing up the United States on "morality" grounds, when it's obvious that some of the so-called "red" states are some of the biggest offenders? Do you know how to read maps?

Where did I mention morality?
Do you know how to?

 

[Twangbanger]

You don't feel value in any discussion therefore nobody should discuss anything. Got it. I called the idea somewhere between impractical and impossible but those terms don't fit your viewpoint, thus no room for discussion. Got it. I don't think you even understand the point I was making. Nothing is lost in discussing ideas for resolution to the splintered world we live in. Blah, blah old fat people the state must take care of, blah, blah Pandemic! Got it.

Wut? You said there's no harm in discussion, which I agree, so I demonstrated my agreement by engaging you in discussion...on the merits. I didn't shut you down. I didn't call you names. I just engaged in the exchange you said you desired.

"Discussion" and being uncritically agreed-with are not the same.

During the closest thing to a crisis we've come across, which was the beer flu pan(dem)ic, a significant chunk of hoosiers turned into fearful, spineless p*ssies, trembling in front of the evening news, buying up hand sanitizer and afraid they wouldn't live two more weeks from something with about the same danger level as a flu that comes through every year. I was sorely disappointed, because for about 6-8 months, when I went around in public, it was like I could have been in New York. So I just wonder where this legion of damn-the-torpedoes, give-me-secession-or-give-me-death freedom lovers was? Because I sure didn't see it. If we're going to secede, divorce, whatever you want to call it, into some more copacetic form of government, a whole lot of those people are going to have to be convinced of the benefits of it. Since I seriously doubt "those people" are going to give up their medicare and social security, without being told what they receive of benefit in return.

We can't collect their passports, put a bayonet at their backs, and march them out of the USA. They will have to be convinced. It's just me, but I don't see them lining up to trade in their federal entitlement checks for tax-free cans on their Ruger 10/22.

 

[Route 45]

Where did I mention morality?
Do you know how to?

If morality is not the basis for your hard-on for secession, then what is it?

 

[Route 45]

Wut? You said there's no harm in discussion, which I agree, so I demonstrated my agreement by engaging you in discussion...on the merits. I didn't shut you down. I didn't call you names. I just engaged in the exchange you said you desired.

I think I know...

 

[BigRed]

If morality is not the basis for your hard-on for secession, then what is it?

An out of bounds and out of control delegated general government that breaches the contract routinely.

Feel free to discuss my statements on morality.

 

[JettaKnight]

If morality is not the basis for your hard-on for secession, then what is it?

Red / blue, purple / green, stripes / dot... BigRed doesn't care how you slice it, so long as you slice it.

 

[VulpesForge]

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What morals are we talking about? I see an awful lot of "red" states that are not exactly beacons of virtue.

All of the red states you listed have a blue city problem and the particulars of your stats there may not be the gotcha you intended. In fact if we just dig a biiiiiiit deeper into the pictures you'll find that all of those red states have a large population of particular minorities who happen to commit a disproportionate amount of all of the negative things your pictures are implying.

Getting half the story and thinking you're educated is far more dangerous than running on instinct. My advice is stop listening to NPR and taking it as gospel. Neither "side" is without virtue and the gotcha game is satisfying short term but ultimately is detrimental to a debate. I feel like we're tying ego to ideas here and that's when everything feels like a personal attack. How about we get some data and extrapolate conclusions with logic instead of peepee measuring because of vague superiority complexes based on whatever talk show you listen to? Talking heads are stupid and if you're just parroting information you haven't thought about(this is for both sides) you're an a**hole.
/Rant

 

[Route 45]

In fact if we just dig a biiiiiiit deeper into the pictures you'll find that all of those red states have a large population of particular minorities who happen to commit a disproportionate amount of all of the negative things your pictures are implying.

 

[BigRed]

Red / blue, purple / green, stripes / dot... BigRed doesn't care how you slice it, so long as you slice it.

Feel free to discuss my statements on morality.

 

[Route 45]

Feel free to discuss my statements on morality.

We can start with your fawning over traitors who fired on US troops in order to preserve their slave-based economy, I suppose.

 

[BigRed]

We can start with your fawning over traitors who fired on US troops in order to preserve their slave-based economy, I suppose.

What was my statement on morality?

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I love brain picking, bouncing ideas off a group, playing devil's advocate. However, this "divorce" term/idea is clean way to say secession. Other than for writing a plot for a movie, I don't understand the draw. It's an automatic rabbit hole that leads nowhere and produces nothing productive. I guess if you just like saying words.... With so many dying and a country that STILL feels the effects of the last secession attempt, is it some mystery why talk about doing so again draws snickers, insults, etc? Believing this is a valid answer to any of today's issues is plain ignorant.

Maybe.

There's been a lot of food for thought for me from both sides in this thread.

Looking at the maps that @Route 45 put up, one still has to genuinely ask a few questions, like: does Texas have a higher sex offender rate than California because there's more pedophiles in Texas, or is it because they're actually charged in Texas while in California they're given a book and told to go discuss their sexual fantasies with children in the local library? Does Indiana have a higher teen birth rate than Illinois because teens fornicate more, or because the teens in Illinois are more likely to kill their babies before they're born? Yes, I'm painting with broad strokes here. But I guess the bigger point is that while there's a significant gap between the morality that conservatives profess, and the morality they actually live out, at least one side is ostensibly trying to push for a return to sanity, instead of fully cheering on the rush into moral depravity.

Yes, Indiana is certainly neither the paragon of moral virtue, nor a bastion of personal freedom. But is anyone going to say we wouldn't at least have a better shot at more personal freedom, lower taxes, and an education system more based on traditional morals without the federal government having its tentacles wormed into every one of our systems?

On the flip side, though, there have been some pretty solid points made, particularly about our own state, and how 2020 proved that the entire country will turn crazy on a dime. While I believe there is a general, discernable moral difference in what we can roughly call the two "sides" in our country right now, I'm not trying to dismiss the moral shortcomings of the "right", either.

Also, even though I talk about different "sides" in our country, I realize they can't be divided by state lines; even Texas had its deeply liberal cities, and Illinois its vast swaths of conservative, rural areas.

And, sadly, this thread has also demonstrated that the cause for secession is still poisoned with those who hold genuinely racist notions of "minorities" being the cause of our moral issues. Which, while those people seem to me to be a small minority, is still saddening and revolting.

Ultimately, I guess I have to say that I agree that pushing for secession is not a worthwhile use of time and effort. I just wanted to say that I have sympathy for those who do desire it, though, and it pains me a little bit to see such a visceral reaction on the part of those out there who dismiss them as idiots and traitors. My own reaction is more like, "Well, that's never gonna happen, and even if it did, it wouldn't be an effective means towards achieving what you think it would. So how about we talk about what those goals are, and work towards the ones we have in common, since there's probably a lot of them?"

Sorry, I know my thoughts are little bit disjointed here, but I'm still chewing it all over in my mind.

 

[cg21]

All of the red states you listed have a blue city problem and the particulars of your stats there may not be the gotcha you intended. In fact if we just dig a biiiiiiit deeper into the pictures you'll find that all of those red states have a large population of particular minorities who happen to commit a disproportionate amount of all of the negative things your pictures are implying.

Getting half the story and thinking you're educated is far more dangerous than running on instinct. My advice is stop listening to NPR and taking it as gospel. Neither "side" is without virtue and the gotcha game is satisfying short term but ultimately is detrimental to a debate. I feel like we're tying ego to ideas here and that's when everything feels like a personal attack. How about we get some data and extrapolate conclusions with logic instead of peepee measuring because of vague superiority complexes based on whatever talk show you listen to? Talking heads are stupid and if you're just parroting information you haven't thought about(this is for both sides) you're an a**hole.
/Rant

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You don’t like stats anymore???

 

[patience0830]

Good luck with your master bait plan. Certainly no shortage of outrage porn on the internet to get ya going.

MTG - Ragemate of the Month.

Between the fish and the squirrels, I've always been a master baiter.

 

[Shadow01]

We should just nuke it from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure…

 

[VulpesForge]

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So, no response to that? Just going to gloss over an inconvenient reality and argue with anyone else to avoid the topic?

 

[KLB]

Just think of the fun of divvying up the national debt and military.

 

[Wolfhound]

In my opinion there is always bloodshed. It either happens during the attempted split (see US Civil War) or after (see USSR).