A combat vets argument for concealed carry not open

[Coach]

Was the OP really against Open Carry or was it against carry. I fail to see how a shirt or a vest over a gun changes about 85-90% of what he was talking about.

 

[88GT]

It is my opinion. I haven't said I think or expect anyone to do what I say. I actually OC or CC depending on my take of the situation which was kind of my point: assess the situation, determine if show of force or surprise is a bigger advantage. For example I prefer to open carry whenever I feel like I have home field advantage.

That's not what the other post said.

What I see in these arguments is what I see in so many ingo posts. Lack of reason and black and white thinking. The inability to see anything outside of their own preconceived notions.

And if the CCers would just leave the OCers alone, we wouldn't have to have that, would we?

One thing you can bank on, I never OC out of Ego, machismo, or to freak out the sheep.

Aaaaaaand there it is. What do you care why someone carries? Honestly. What's it to you if I carry specifically so that everybody that walks by (and has his situational awareness plugged in), can see it? What if I carried because it did make me feel like a badass? What if I carried so could watch the sheep talk behind their hands in furtive whispers wondering whether or not the slightly overweight woman with two kids in tow is going to be the next mass shooting criminal?

Why do you care why someone OCs?

 

[CPT Nervous]

It never ceases to amaze me.

CCer attacks OCer on his choice to OC.

OCer defends his position.

CCers gang up on OCers for defending their positions, and claim that we're advocating that everyone OC, which is entirely fabricated, and would have never been brought up if it wasn't for the aforementioned CCer who thinks he knows what's best for all of us.

 

[Kagnew]

I'll add my bit to the glue factory candidate of a thread:

The threshold of action (drawing gun) should IMO be very high. Once you draw your gun, the range of good outcomes is reduced, and the likelihood of bad outcomes is higher.

In the store robbery case that is oft-cited, I would say that your first reaction should be to not draw a gun nor stand out in anyway. Unless the robber shows clear intention to kill (rather than steal), you should probably choose to let the robbery continue.

If you OC, then you basically remove that option to lay low. You may actually increase the probably of someone (other than BG) getting hurt or killed.

That said, I refuse to accept the idea that OC or CC is always better than the other option. Neither is without risk or reward in a given situation.

There's no substitute for using your own judgement. If I carried (I do not), I would tend towards CC just be more sociable and not draw attention to myself.

Even if you don't have any intention to draw stares from people, you can't never disprove the allegation that you're just looking for attention.

I'd rather it not be an issue, and I'm willing to live with the disadvantages of CC in most cases.

+1

 

[goinggreyfast]

I REALLY LOVE VEAL.

 

[Rookie]

 

[AndersonIN]

Kinda like those 'PROGRESSIVES THAT WILL NOT TOLERATE THOSE THAT ARE INTOLERANT!!!! i.e. if you don't agree me with you are wrong.....if you don't change your mind now that I've told you you're wrong then you are STUPID AND WRONG!

 

[repeter1977]

Combat was quieter and they ONLY wanted to kill me....not remove body parts!!!!

Hell, in combat i made extra money, didnt have as many bills and just had to worry about staying alive. Exs, well, lets just say, they made bills, somehow made less money, and still tried killing me, both slowly and quickly. Geez. Kinda wish I had been able to redeploy again.

 

[jbrooks19]

OP, Wow is all i can say............. I do understand taking a life is a life changing event, but you better believe that if my wife, unborn child, my family, my friends, or even my own life is at risk i will NOT hesitate to pull the trigger. My mind will NOT think about the "What if's" i will just be thinking about ending the threat at all costs. If someone is dumb enough to threaten another persons life then they basically are saying that the do not hold their own life as any importance. Basically if you do bad things, bad things are going to happen to you.

 

[WJB63]

OC or CC what is the difference? The common denominator here is Carry. How each of us does it is a personal choice. I know I said this in another thread but here it goes again. I OC or CC depending on whether that be due to weather or situation. Either works for ME, how others choose to carry is THEIR business not mine. I know my level of training and skill and with that knowledge comes the peace of mind knowing that I will do my personal best protecting myself and those important to me. To the OC only folks .. Yes! You carry ... good for you, stay safe. For the CC folks .. Yes! You carry .. good for you, stay safe.

 

[Double T]

I quit reading when you said you wouldn't draw unless you felt you had to....sounds a lot like Mr. Yeager's tactics caught on video CYOA and get the hell out of dodge.

If anyone, points a firearm at another person they are getting one pointed back. End of story. It doesn't matter whether the gun is in a coat, backpack, fanny pack, retention/OC, or taped to my ****ing forehead. Someone threatens someone else and they better be ready for the fight of their lives. I am ready though, so I don't have to hide it.

 

[OEF5]

I was wondering the same thing...

Do I need to build a rack for my sig line too?!

As a Combat Vet:

Only if you really want to be COOL!!!

I only made it because I don't have any other way to show them off lol. I thought it was pretty cool.

MW2, MW3, Black Ops I'm an all alone INGO member on them for PS3 lol.

 

[Kagnew]

As a Combat Vet:

Only if you really want to be COOL!!!

I only made it because I don't have any other way to show them off lol. I thought it was pretty cool.

MW2, MW3, Black Ops I'm an all alone INGO member on them for PS3 lol.

I'd show all of mine if it weren't for space restrictions.

 

[repeter1977]

I'd show all of mine if it weren't for space restrictions.

I'd show mine, but im, um, whats that called? Oh yea, lazy, lol, besides, hadnt seen how to do it and be able to save it and put it on here. Although, i have to say, its pretty BA that it is on here like that.

 

[CPT Nervous]

 

[The Reca]

I am going to submit the same reply here as I did in the original thread. Sorry if you already read this.

Carrying openly suggests to someone that you are ready for trouble and that someone looking for trouble will find it. To a criminal, you are also advertising that you are trouble. To bystanders and responding police, you are advertising that you MIGHT be trouble. Bystanders don't know the difference until you part ways.

Open carrying does not suggest anything other than the fact that you are armed. How one carries themselves, dresses, and their demeanor are the only things that would suggest anything. If some one dresses like a hoodlum and acts like an idiot then yes your statement can be observed as true otherwise it is not so likely. Their are certain "rules" one who carries, be it open or concealed, should follow. I have noticed when I personally OC I get welcomed more by store owners, police, and even the average every day person. This may have to do with me being clean cut, appropriate attire, being well mannered but again that goes to how one handles themselves when OC. I have found through personal experience that more often than not I am perceived as an off duty officer or an "ally" to law enforcement. This is not just my personal experience for a fellow member on another forum who is now a friend of mine shares these experiences as well.

I'm very well-trained in close quarters combat shooting and in most situations as a citizen, I would not pull the gun. A few important reasons why:

1) rule number four of combat shooting - know your target and what's behind it. Chances are people are behind the perp so you have to look for a shot or create one. The criminal might not have any such reservations. I have a high degree of confidence I'll hit what I'm aiming at. The criminal probably will not under that much stress.
Collateral damage is common in urban gunbattles.

A couple of points to make here for anyone carrying regardless if it is CC or OC:

1) Maintaining good situational awareness at all times. Knowing what is around you and who is around you is a good way to stay ahead of any encounter.

2) Knowing your abilities as a marksman. Awareness of you capabilities and limitations will help you determine if it is worth you putting your finger on that trigger.

3) Choosing your ammunition. There are many options for ammunition. Knowing what type of ammunition to use in different environments makes a difference.

Putting those things together will help save someone's life. I am not suggestion you take the shot as soon as one becomes available because that is not your "job". You as a well informed bystander who is ready for an unwelcoming encounter should always (when possible) call the police first! Having a firearm does not make you a super hero. Nor does having a firearm make you the law. Call the police first and let them do their job. However if the situation gets to the point where you have to make a righteous decision to draw your firearm and put your finger on the trigger to put down an individual who is or can potentially harm (in the process of using deadly force) dozens of others then there should be no hesitation. There would be MORE "collateral damage" if you choose to sit back and let the individual point, aim, & shoot at the innocent bystanders.

2) money and material possessions, whether insured or not, are not worth the life of SOMEONE ELSE. Innocent people can get hurt. Bullets very often travel through barriers and can hurt if not kill. Why take the chance unless absolutely necessary? Better to get the plate # and description of a car or of the suspect for law enforcement.

1) Again knowing the different types of ammunition and choosing it wisely will help avoid unwanted penetration.

2) As mentioned above it is not your "job" to take manners into your own hands. If it is possible call the police and let them do what they are paid, trained, and equipped to do.

3) Taking a life, as was stated before, is not something to be taken lightly.

As mentioned above. It would be better to put an individual down who can harm multiple individuals than to sit back and do nothing. You choose which side of the "collateral damage" you want to be on based on the circumstances.

4) If things go badly, and I think we can all agree they can, you might save the day, and still wind up sued or worse, charged with a crime if things aren't clean. The broader issue: threat assessment and the application of force. If you pull a gun you better be prepared to use it. Was it even justifiable?

I do agree that things can go bad if you are negligent in your how you handle the situation and you should be aware of the consequences of your actions; however, If you maintain good situational awareness, stay within your abilities as a marksmen, are mindful of the ammunition loaded in your firearm, use your best judgment based on the life of others as well as your own, and do your best to not get involved out side of informing the police on the encounter. Then I would say you have a Better chance at staying away from things going bad.

Even as a combat veteran who carries concealed, when I see someone carrying openly, my first thought is, why the hell are they carrying the gun? Are they responsible enough with that gun not to get us all killed getting involved in something they might not be trained for, i.e. COMBAT.

One can truly never know what skills another individual may or may not have. Best thing you can do is maintain your situational awareness and be prepared to either stay away from the individual in question or possibly (Really depending on the circumstances) assist them.

Some things to consider about open-carry: Do you really want to make an armed robber even more nervous when they see your weapon carried openly after barging into a store? They're unlikely to see it until they are in the place. Gauging or rather "gambling" on how a criminal is going to react is dangerous and it could be fatal. They come in and see your gun, you see them, maybe you instinctively reach for the gun, and even hesitate...there's more than a few things that can go wrong here. That kind of stress leads people to do things you would not always expect.
If a perp runs into the store armed and sees your gun, you have now become priority number one. Is that safer for you and the others around you? The money the perp wants is insured. Unless he's shooting people, he most likely wants the money and to leave. Everybody else wants to survive. Consider whether it's worth the trouble that can potentially be caused. It could escalate the situation into a fatal encounter in what otherwise would have been survivable. Your decision to openly carry, or even use your gun is one that is made for every person in the area.

Forget about how rare this particular situation is (crazed gun men running into rob a place) and instead lets focus on the assumptions. You can never truly know what a criminal is thinking while in the act of committing a crime. You can assume they are just here for the money but in all honesty you can never really know why a criminal is committing a crime. They may be in to get revenge.. Use best judgment based on the circumstances at hand.

Stats teach us nothing about deterrant because you can't track crimes that don't take place because of open-carry. While most criminals are unlikely to break into a house of a gun-owner, how many criminals really avoid actual crimes because of open-carry? No way to track that info realistically.

I concede carrying concealed is not useful if the gun is not readily available. Mine can be reached and effectively used in seconds (Combat reflexive shooting). A lot of practice and training went into it. I respect everyone's opinion who wants to carry openly but I think it's selfish to just say, well the housewife with her four kids at the grocery store needs to get used to seeing guns on our hips. Carrying is a way of life and a tremendous responsibility. Gunfights are rarely ever clean, and somebody almost always gets hurt. Most rounds fired in combat, even by trained professionals, are not on target. That's an absolute fact. Mostly because people are moving and stress. Moving and shooting is a skill well-beyond what even experienced range shooters are capable of. Especially if bystanders are involved.

Personally, I think someone that wants to carry should do what the U.S. military teaches it's operators to do: Carry concealed where you can access the gun rapidly if you ever needed to. Train harder and more effectively rather than trust your life and everyone else's to the presumption that a criminal will respond the way you want them to.

I agree. Stat's can't be used because there is no way to prove crime was prevented due to someone carrying. Most shots fired in a gun fight are not on target. It would probably be best to CC when possible. I would like to think that if someone was about to snatch a purse and saw someone across the street with a firearm on their hip they would think twice and likely choose not to. I also think that it is best to only shoot when necessary and not engage in a gunfight. If you have no choice hopefully the police are already on their way. As far as CC vs OC I am a firm believer that if you do not exercise your rights the government while try to find a way to remove them.

I hope you do not take this as an attack. I simply enjoy a good debate. Thank you for your service and your post. It is always good to see the view's of others.

Again this is just my

 

[Lwjones2]

I could not agree more with this post. This is good advice. You have the right to open carry just like you have the right to wear a t shirt with a huge bullseye on it. Doesn't mean you should. I conceal carry to protect myself, family, and friends. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect the aforementioned. That being said, the last thing I want to do is draw more attention to myself or my loved ones in a shoot out. For the protection of those who may be standing close to me, I will never open carry.

 

[Bunnykid68]

I could not agree more with this post. This is good advice. You have the right to open carry just like you have the right to wear a t shirt with a huge bullseye on it. Doesn't mean you should. I conceal carry to protect myself, family, and friends. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect the aforementioned. That being said, the last thing I want to do is draw more attention to myself or my loved ones in a shoot out. For the protection of those who may be standing close to me, I will never open carry.

Criminals conceal carry

 

[repeter1977]

I could not agree more with this post. This is good advice. You have the right to open carry just like you have the right to wear a t shirt with a huge bullseye on it. Doesn't mean you should. I conceal carry to protect myself, family, and friends. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect the aforementioned. That being said, the last thing I want to do is draw more attention to myself or my loved ones in a shoot out. For the protection of those who may be standing close to me, I will never open carry.

Most the open carry people do not make it obvious. Not as obvious as people make it out to be. Carry it, its on your hip, and gee, your arms are swaying back and forth in front of them. Have a dark shirt with a dark weapon, and no one even notices. More people carrying is a GOOD thing, regardless of HOW they carry.
As for assuming that somehow, in a shootout, you will glow or something cause you open carried, there is also the belief that open carry scares off criminals, or they wait for the carrier to leave before they commit the crime. So, you moved your family out of the line of fire, that IF something happened, they would be in the way, while you try to draw out your firearm, while everyone is running around and screaming and being unpredictable idiots.

 

[LockStocksAndBarrel]

I could not agree more with this post. This is good advice. You have the right to open carry just like you have the right to wear a t shirt with a huge bullseye on it. Doesn't mean you should. I conceal carry to protect myself, family, and friends. I am willing to put myself in harms way to protect the aforementioned. That being said, the last thing I want to do is draw more attention to myself or my loved ones in a shoot out. For the protection of those who may be standing close to me, I will never open carry.

Welcome to INGO. Great first post. Criminals love hard targets. Rather than move on to someone unarmed like you, the BG will always go for the guy with a gun that will ruin his day.

Not only is that perfectly logical, you read stories every day in the news about the BG that shoots the guy with a gun first, right?

Since you're new here, may I suggest: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...lf_defense/71996-the_open_carry_argument.html