7.62 (NATO or Russian) vs 5.56/5.45

[MattYagPD01]

ok... little confused and need some help. You all are a great wealth of knowledge and every little helps.

been reading and have come across the purported idea that the tumbling round is officially debunked. The damage created by a round is from the temporary channel, not the RPS from a tumbling round. I can remember growing up and in basic that the tumble was everything, and cause one hell of a lot of damage. Help me out here.

not trying to compare Russian and US. Just caliber and applied effect.

M

 

[sloughfoot]

I am unclear what your question is.

The bullets in the calibers you cited do indeed tumble upon impact with tissue. And sometimes they do not.

 

[MattYagPD01]

According to my research:

5.45 will tumble 15k rps upon impact. At 3000 fps, that is almost a revolution (ruffly) in the flesh of a large game animal (about 12 to 18 inches of flesh). A 7.62 has never been know to be a tumbling round upon impact. there are some story's (and i mean story's... i have no proof) that in Vietnam the VC/NVA were known to practice shooting through trees at us. Wasn't there... have nothing to use as proof. Just Ballistics comparisons, Kin Ene test's and comparisons etc.

I am just wondering if there are any Ballistic Jell test's out there that can confirm or bust which method is more effective? the tumble or the temp channel?

 

[Mr.JAG]

7.62 wound channel

5.45 wound channel

You can see how the 5.45 dumps its energy into the target much faster than the 7.62 does (wound channel starts closer to impact). These rounds do tumble, but people still argue about the effectiveness of that tumble.

IMO, its isn't how many times a round tumbles before it leaves a target... what matters is how long it spends turned sideways. During that period, it is imparting more energy into the target than at any other part.

 

[mms]

the 5.45x39 is def designed to tumble, I have seen one of the bullets cut in half, its hollow with a floating steel core that apon impact moves forward destabalising the round.

I belive this steel core is usually refered to as a steel penetrator, but not certain

 

[mms]

check out this pic shows a cut away
File:Cartridge Kalashnikov AK-74.svg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

According to my research:

5.45 will tumble 15k rps upon impact. At 3000 fps, that is almost a revolution (ruffly) in the flesh of a large game animal (about 12 to 18 inches of flesh). A 7.62 has never been know to be a tumbling round upon impact. there are some story's (and i mean story's... i have no proof) that in Vietnam the VC/NVA were known to practice shooting through trees at us. Wasn't there... have nothing to use as proof. Just Ballistics comparisons, Kin Ene test's and comparisons etc.

I am just wondering if there are any Ballistic Jell test's out there that can confirm or bust which method is more effective? the tumble or the temp channel?

don't confuse "tumbling", which most would describe as end-over-end rotation, with the spin imparted on the projectile by the barrel's rifling.

 

[OneBadV8]

7.62 Nato or Russian?

Which one are you talking about?
7.62 Nato is .308

Russian could be 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

7.62 Nato or Russian?

Russian could be 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R

Yep. And the "R" on 7.62x54R doesn't stand for "Russian", either. It stands for "rimmed"; as in the cartridge has a rimmed case.


-J-

 

[Mad Anthony Wayne]

The Russians designed their 7n6 AK74 ammo after observing the nasty wound channels from the 5.56 Nato round. They definatley designed the round to yaw upon impact. They also wanted they same ability to carry more rounds like a soldier can when carrying 5.56 in comparison to 7.62x39.

 

[MattYagPD01]

the 5.45x39 is def designed to tumble, I have seen one of the bullets cut in half, its hollow with a floating steel core that apon impact moves forward destabalising the round.

I believe this steel core is usually refered to as a steel penetrator, but not certain

Little history about the hollow 5.45:

It was used extensively by the Soviets in Afghanistan during their fight for the soul of that country. The 'Afghan Freedom Fighters' as they were termed at the time, called the soviet 5.45 round the 'poison bullet' because of its devastation. I didn't realize all the 5.45 rounds were hollow? Learn something new every day.

Thanks

M

 

[MattYagPD01]

don't confuse "tumbling", which most would describe as end-over-end rotation, with the spin imparted on the projectile by the barrel's rifling.

Here's a vid for you that show's what im talking about with tumbling:

YouTube - AK74 vs M16

Go to a minute. It shows the tumbling of a 5.56 nato and a 5.45 russian. The whole thing is a great vid to compare the two.

 

[MattYagPD01]

7.62 Nato or Russian?

Which one are you talking about?
7.62 Nato is .308

Russian could be 7.62x39 or 7.62x54R

Ya in know... I wasn't trying to go through the differences between the russian and nato 30 cal rounds. 30 caliber's are not known for tumbling, 223's are. I haven't been able to identify which is better at purely damage and kin energy. Thanks to the jell photo's up there.... I think i have my answer..

Thanks

M

 

[MattYagPD01]

7.62 wound channel

5.45 wound channel

You can see how the 5.45 dumps its energy into the target much faster than the 7.62 does (wound channel starts closer to impact). These rounds do tumble, but people still argue about the effectiveness of that tumble.

IMO, its isn't how many times a round tumbles before it leaves a target... what matters is how long it spends turned sideways. During that period, it is imparting more energy into the target than at any other part.

amazing. Thanks very much for this.

What do you think about the whole Temporary channel damage? (My ref: ASD - Wound Ballistics - ...vigilant, prepared and capable). It is a really intriguing article and really makes sense.

What do you think?

M

 

[sloughfoot]

Google "terminal ballistics". Look for the name Dr Martin Fackler. He has been an authority on the subjst for many years.

 

[CarmelHP]

They'll all make you dead real quick.

 

[MattYagPD01]

Google "terminal ballistics". Look for the name Dr Martin Fackler. He has been an authority on the subjst for many years.

Man ... thank you so very much. This article (found because of the term you directed me to use) is the answer to every balistic question related to this post. It talk's about the study's, the references, the date's, times .....

sorry..... i gotta stop geekin out.....


it's a great resource. Thank you very much

M

Terminal Ballistics

in a nutshell... tumbling creates a larger permanent channel closer to the entry point of the wound. larger caliber creates a massive temporary channel (30 cal can create 5 to 8 inch temporary hole and some permanent tearing) but tumbling causes more internal damage over a wider area due to fragmentation and the effect of the force changing dimensions after impact (effective dimensions, not actual.) The saboted 30 cal (out of a 50 cal) creates a 10 inch or larger temporary channel (effectively creating an exploding piece of flesh). The larger temporary channel also creates massive compression of internal organs as the force from the round pushes adjacent flesh out of the way to create the temporary channel. And when fired at the correct location, will cause congestive organ failure. That is why the effectiveness of the 30 cal is so widely touted in large game hunting. The round doesn't fragment as much, doesn't tear or destroy as much of the meat, and carries a larger kin ene over a longer range (refering to 30-06, 308win, 303, 30-40, 30-30 etc. not the 7.62 russian which is proven to lose it's kin ene after 200 meters.) The 5.45 and 5.56 will also not kill imediately. It causes the permanent channel damage (hence the 'poison bullet' title the afghan's gave the round) that requires immediate medical attention. It also causes psychological effect's against the enemy in a combat situation (probably should be addressed in another post/thread.) Read this guys website for a ton of information as well as a great group of study's, graphic representations, etc.

Thanks again

M

 

[johntheplinker]

With the 7.62x39 round its also going to depend on whether its a M43 type bullet or the M67 type. The M43 has a tendency to not tumble, and this round is not powerful enough to rely on sheer energy to do lethal damage. The M67 bullet was developed to rectify that fault and will tumble in less than 6" of penetration, and improved M67 designs will tumble almost instantly. One reason the x39 round has remained in Soviet/Russian service even after the adoption of the 5.45 round is because it has much better penetration on hard targets, and with the improved M67 bullet is is just as lethal on soft targets. Many of the Russian internal security and special forces have gone back to the 7.62 round for that reason while the regular military units are sticking to the 5.45. The only big advantage the 5.45 round has is weight, which can be a major factor when you have to hump everything, plus you can load a heckuva lot more rounds on the back of a truck or a helo for resupply.

the 5.45x39 is def designed to tumble, I have seen one of the bullets cut in half, its hollow with a floating steel core that apon impact moves forward destabalising the round.

I belive this steel core is usually refered to as a steel penetrator, but not certain

Actually the weight moving forward will tend to stabilize, not destabilize the bullet. What happens is the center of gravity of the bullet is center or slightly to rear of center. When the bullet strikes something soft, the front of the bullet slows slightly while the rear is still traveling at a faster rate. Because the heavier part is further back, it tries to overtake the slightly slower, lighter front of the bullet. Since the jacket is heavy enough to prevent collapse, and the bullet is rotating on its axis, the bullet goes sideways and eventually the rear of the bullet becomes the front. If the soft target is thick enough, this can repeat a couple of times. Now, when the bullet hits something hard ( wall, body armor, etc.), then the core does move forward and it acts to keep the bullet traveling point forward, thus increasing penetration.
Also any steel core in ball ammo (silver or no paint in Soviet/Russia/combloc usage)is actually a very soft steel, and increases penetration slightly if at all. The Soviets were big on using steel cores simply because it was cheaper to use than lead, same as using steel bullet jackets and cases as opposed to copper jackets and brass cases.

 

[vxtip]

ive read on various boards people say the Afghanis called it the "poison bullet" but not because it was some devastating round, but because it killed slowly, which i think is more likely considering 5.45 is designed to yaw. i imagine in that country most gunshot wounds would be lethal if not treated in a hospital. i think the russians mistook the 5.56's lethality as being caused by yaw, and missing the whole, violent fragmentation thing.