358WSSM case making project.

[Igotgills2]

Kludge, again you are a wealth of information which I am very grateful for. I would appreciate it if you emailed me the reamer print so i can verify everything is as it should be when I go to purchase. I will PM you with my email.

I have decided to go the 26" MGM barrel route with Just hunt on a TC Pro Hunter. That being said they are carrying the Redding dies and use them to reload their ammo. Hopefully that means the Manson reamer print should match the MGM barrel they have available. I looked at BMG as well but they dont appear to have any barrels available for the TC.

Paul did mention that the shoulder on the cases used in the TC platform is different that the shoulder on their bolt guns cases. That confuses me a bit as they use the Redding dies but i intend on asking questions when i go in there this weekend. He also mentioned that the Redding die set they have is only for loading, not resizing and that they custom made their resizing dies for all of their brass production..... again need to clarify. I understand I will need to have additional resizing dies in order to take the parent .25 WSSM to the .358 WSSM dimensions through at least 2 sizing steps, plus annealing between .30-.35 on unfired brass(possibly) trimming case length, turning the necks (possibly) final annealing (hopefully i have this figured out) and then a resizing check. If someone is saying this is a 12 step process....what am i missing here?

As I understood, there are a few versions of the Redding die sets out that either have neck resizing, full length or complete 3 piece set for the .358/25 WSSM. Just need to be sure I'm purchasing the correct one if that's the case.

I'm definitely taking notes and starting to dig the complexity of the process, even if my wife thinks I'm nuts. Now just need to finish acquiring my bag of goodies and start the fun.

I'll be sure to take photos of this as well and share if anyone is interested. That being said you are a tough act to follow so I'll take the time and do my best work.

 

[Igotgills2]

Oh, hey, fellas. Guess what I got today in the mail? That's right, 100 -200gr Accubond bullets!

10 are loaded right now, along with kludge's favorite the 200gr Hornady SPRP (?)and a healthy load of some of the surplus powder WC846.

Tomorrow, we shall see!

BC is pretty good on that 200gr Accubond too. .360 if I remember right. Close anyway......Can't wait!

So.... whats the word on the test run? I'm still debating on my load and need some convincin'

 

[Skip]

Hornady 200gr, best shooting so far for accuracy in the 1:14" twist I have. 2600fps too.
More later...............

 

[kludge]

Which powder?

 

[kludge]

I understand I will need to have additional resizing dies in order to take the parent .25 WSSM to the .358 WSSM dimensions through at least 2 sizing steps, plus annealing between .30-.35 on unfired brass(possibly) trimming case length, turning the necks (possibly) final annealing (hopefully i have this figured out) and then a resizing check. If someone is saying this is a 12 step process....what am i missing here?

I was able to take new factory winchester brass and neck up in two steps without annealing. I annealed after necking up was completed. Like I said, maybe I've just been lucky. I go slow.

There are two tapered "expanders" that go on the decapping pin. The first one takes it to 30 cal and the second one to 35 cal, so you have to run them through the sizing die twice.

As I understood, there are a few versions of the Redding die sets out that either have neck resizing, full length or complete 3 piece set for the .358/25 WSSM. Just need to be sure I'm purchasing the correct one if that's the case.

The two die set has a full length resizing/decapping die, and the tapered expanders, plus a bullet seating die. The three die set adds a neck sizing die. For hunting ammo you can get by just fine with the two die set. You will also need a shell holder, if you don't have one already, it's not included with the dies.

 

[Skip]

WC846 same as BLC-(2). If fills the case and will put them in a sub moa group if I do my part, which, is getting much harder to do as I grow older!

And, I agree with kludge about the dies. They are all you need for necking up your brass. As I said, I used STP. I tried RCBS II and Imperial Sizing Wax and had 5 times the number of split cases using them.

At this point, I am going to try to find a barrel with a 1:10" twist rate and see if that will stablize the Accubonds better. That is for much farther in the future though, like, years out.......

The 180gr SSP and the 200gr SPRP are what I am going to use in this rifle from now on. They shoot by far the best and I don't have to drive them so hard.

Gills, just remember, Just Hunt, while they are great people to deal with, they sell brass and all that........Sometimes people's comments are because of where they derive their livelyhood from........Even good folks do that from time to time......

 

[kludge]

I had a little trouble with BL-(C)2. It didn't like compression, velocities got very erratic on that last 0.3gr increase. I also found it to be highly temperature sensitive. Without looking at my notes, I dropped 80fps from 80 degrees ambient to 30 degrees ambient. I was kissing 2400fps with the 225gr SGK, and I watched it steadily drop to <2320fps in the hour that my ammo went from warm car to ambient. (22" barrel, 1:14" twist)

If you look at the burn rate charts, it seems no on can agree an where BL-(C)2 belongs. One thing I *do* like about BL-(C)2 is that you can pack a lot of powder in there, right up to the limit. Just don't go beyond the limit. One thing I WOULD NOT do with BL-(C)2 is develop a load in the 30's and then shoot it in the 80's and 90's. I've read that some highpower match shooters will actually keep their BL-(C)2 ammo on ice, and take it out only to load the magazine and shoot it... but y'all can consider that hearsay.

IMR 4895 is my load right now, and H4895 is the next one to try - just for the improved temperature stability. I'm also going to revisit Benchmark. IMR 3031 is on my list too. QuickLoad (no, I don't have a copy) seems to think that 3031 and RL-10x would be just right (a Powley computer agrees with IMR3031), but I've heard things about RL-10x that don't suit my tastes... so Benchmark and IMR3031 are the two "fast" powders on my list.

I like working with the IMR stick powders -- they just seem to me to be very predictable in the way that they progress in pressure from start loads to max loads, without any surprises. I also like starting with slower powders, and working my way toward faster powders - BLC-2 has been the exception. Hodgdon puts it slower than Varget and IMR4320. Some charts have it next to H-335 and H-4895, and one has it right next to RL-10x!

Now, I know, burn rates need to be taken with a very large grain of salt since they can vary greatly depending on how it used, it's merely a place to start when looking at what powders *might* be useful in a certain cartridge.

gills -- another note for you... for my start loads I have been relying on .358 Winchester load data from the load manuals and online resources. My case capacity is exactly the same as the .358 Winchester. Also, I have always hit *my* pressure maximum about a grain or so BELOW the max loads listed for the .358 Win. This may have something to do with the short fat powder column in the WSSM burning more efficiently than the longer thinner powder column in the .358 Win.

 

[Igotgills2]

It's official, Time to start playin. OK so purchased the Redding 358/25 dies and an MGM barrel. Asking questions about sizing the cases and didnt quite get the answers i was looking for. No reamer print available however its a Pacific tool versionand the Redding die produced loads are used in the barrel. I purchased a few rounds to compare against the dimensions on the reamer prints i have and hopefully that gives me a good reference for which I specifically have. The rounds are formed from .243 WSSM cases.
Need to connect with them and see if they can provide me with a Reamer print.

let the games begin.

 

[Igotgills2]

Gents,

I have the reamer print from MGM and it shows Dave Manson on it as well. My reamer dims are a little off of the reamer specs from your print Kludge. I sent you the print for reference. It appears that the neck length is the significant difference on paper. Left the Dies at home but will check on those later and compare to the values i have on the loads and compare to the prints.

 

[kludge]

Got it.

Instead of replying to your email, I'll post here, so everybody else can learn too.

A couple things I notice... if you'll recall my mentioning that originally I was going to go with a chamber that didn't need neck turning, well your barrel's neck diameter looks to be good for no neck turning at 0.395" in the chamber.

0.358"+0.017"+0.017"=0.392"

But do yourself a favor and keep an eye on the loaded diameter; 0.395-0.392=0.003" is fairly tight for a hunting rifle -- not *too tight*, but probably as far as you want to go. That assumes you get about the same neck thickness I did without neck turning. The bad news for you is that the Redding dies are 0.390" on the seating die (well, mine is anyway), meaning that when you seat the bullet, it's going to get stuck in the seater die. If you have a set of pin gauges you'll need to measure your dies just to be sure.

It's possible that MGM can take the chamber reamer to your dies and open up the neck diameter a little bit -- they may have already done that before you purchased them... or Redding may have changed their dies. Who knows. Like I said everybody's stuff is a little different.

If your seating die is 0.390" like mine and you can't open up the seating die you'll have to turn the necks.

You might think about opening up the sizing die as well, since this will result in less working of the neck, and longer case life. This is harder to do since you can't do it with the chamber reamer.

I also noticed that your chamber length is 1.680" min and a 0.396" neck length, whereas mine is 1.635" and 0.347". My reamer and dies were made before the 1.8" rule change. It's no longer necessary to trim the .35 WSSM brass to 1.625" (actually I trimmed to 1.620") to be legal. I think that difference is responsible for your change in the chamber length - eliminating another step in the wildcat making process. My freebore is longer than yours but you will probably be allowed a tad more overall cartridge length as a result.

What you'll have to watch out for again here is in the seating die. If you do not trim the brass you'll have to be careful that your seting die is not set up too short, as you could crush cases as you're attempting to seat the bullet (the brass will hit the internal length limit of the dies before the bullet is fully seated, and could crush the shoulder if you go any further). I'm not saying you *will* have this issue, but it's something to check for. The solution to this is to set up the die accordingly: place the brass in the shell holder (no bullet), raise the ram fully, back out the bullet seating stem as far as possible and start screwing in the seating die until you feel it touch the brass and then back the die out 1/2 to 3/4 turn. Lock the die down with the lock nut. Then go about adjusting the bullet seating stem.

BTW, I am not seating my bullets all the way to the cannelure, I am seating them 0.015" to 0.020" off the lands in my rifle. You might be closer to the cannelure.

 

[Igotgills2]

OK, so I have acquired all of my piece parts for this, except for the brass. Had to order these online but got a reasonable deal for 100 pcs 25WSSM brass for 70.00 shipped.

Have been looking to purchase items as local as possible but this is proving to be more difficult than previously anticipated. Seems as if locals shops aren't carrying the accubond bullets, and when they do they are quite a bit higher priced. I lucked out, a friend of mine has all of the requisite case prep items so I can "borrow" his trimmer and neck turner as needed.

I am planning on having my cases formed and dummy loads complete this week. Based on what i find out there, i hope to have starting loads ready by this weekend to go test.

On a side note........ i need a good piece of glass for this critter. Any suggestions on under 400.00 scopes that will mate up? Was told to look for 4-12 x 40+. Thought since you guys have been shooting this round, you may have a more educated suggestion on scope magnification requirements for the occasional long shot.

BTW, will be posting pics this week.

 

[Skip]

Leupold VX-R 3-9x50mm is what mine wears. Good glass. This is a semi high powered rifle and the ballistic dots help with the accelerated drop, if you get my drift.

There are others too. There is a guy on the forum that sells glass. Go to that section and take a look see.

 

[Broom_jm]

In the $400 price range, consider the Zeiss Conquest. The reviews on it are excellent and many folks feel it is the best of the "affordable" scopes on the market today.

 

[Igotgills2]

Hmmmm... I thought about the VX-1 or 2, saw the Conquest as well. I have been looking at the Vortex line and they appear to be solid, functional and have a good history. Guess i would like to hear user feedback on those if anyone has one.

 

[42769vette]

Hmmmm... I thought about the VX-1 or 2, saw the Conquest as well. I have been looking at the Vortex line and they appear to be solid, functional and have a good history. Guess i would like to hear user feedback on those if anyone has one.

my 358 wears a 2.5-10x44 viper hs. 399 bucks, the bdc reticle works great for holdover, very good light gathering, 2.5 is great for close up shots and low light, 10x will get me out plenty far for the 358 on deer size targets. obviously i have a ton of options to chose from and the scope i picked was 400 bucks. that should say somthing for it.

Vortex Optics - Viper HS 2.5-10x44 Dead-Hold BDC

drop me a line if you have any questions, i have a few of them instock now.

 

[Skip]

Nice scope, vette.
I almost bought something similar from you when I was putting glass on mine. Might have to revisit that in the future! hahaha
(Might get mom set up with this gun! Time will tell!)

 

[Igotgills2]

Vette, I had this exact piece on my radar. Guess I was debating between this and a Monarch. I think I like the Vortex features better for the money but wanted to look at it in person before purchasing.

Let me deal with some internal demons on this and I will letcha know.

 

[Igotgills2]

OK, Sorry for the lag in posts guys. Been immensely hectic on this end for the past Month. So I received my parent cases, 25WSSM and finally had some time last night to sit down uninterrupted and work on these. I sized the first step to .30 and then annealed, followed by sizing to .35 but did not anneal a second time. Thought I would load these and test fire some safe loads, then anneal prior to reloading those cases. I used Skips trick and utilized Pam cooking spray as my sizing lube. Man, I can't believe how well that stuff worked and a bonus, even though i wiped all of it off, when i was annealing the basement smelled like popcorn. I didn't lose a single case in this process and they all look like good cases. I purchased several loads from Just Hunt when I got the barrel as a reference and I realized that they trimmed the cases to 1.600" with an OAL (225 Accubond) of 2.650. so i decided to mimic this and trimmed the cases to 1.600. I double checked case thickness (.017) and After setting die heights and producing a few dummy loads to be sure the cartridge chambered, I spun out a few rounds for this weekend. Without any turning, my neck diameter loaded is 0.391-0.392 and the reamer print shows chamber neck at .395. its tight but slides in and out of the chamber without any issues and it locks up tight. I made several with 44 gr. 4895 and 45gr. 4895 but noticed that the charge was at the shoulder/neck with 45 gr. and appears that any additional powder will result in a compressed load. Loading manual shows 48gr in .358 Winchester as the max load, but don't think i can get that much powder in my cases......

I've looked around at some of the comments on this load but seem to be challenged to find any info on if you guys have compressed loads.

chime in if you will.

I will be sure to post results after the visit to the range.

 

[snydleywhiplash]

try using a drop tube, it will make more room in the case.

 

[kludge]

I trimmed my cases to 1.620" for the first firing, after which they grew to about 1.630" (normal for new brass) and I trimmed the second time to 1.615". The sizing die and the chamber are perfectly matched for each other (I really love the Redding dies) and case growth has been minimal. After the fourth firing (about half of my cases have been fired four times) I might have to trim again (I'm going to anneal again too). 1.600" seems a bit short, but I'm loading my bullets out as far as is prudent(~0.015" off the lands) to make the most space for powder. I'm roughly 1/10" from the cannelure on the Hornady bullets.

H4985 or IMR 4895? I haven't needed a drop tube with IMR 4895, but it will fill about half way up the neck. I just lightly tap the case on the loading bench until it settles down to the bottom of the neck (where the base of the bullet is)... put your finger over the case mouth. Don't quote me, since I don't have my load notes in front of me, but the bolt became a bit stiff at 50.0gr with a 200gr Interlock and I backed off to 49.5gr for a max load. This gives roughly 2525fps from my 22" barrel.

We wary if compressing BL-C(2). If I went past the base of the seated bullet (no drop tube or tapping) by more than 0.5gr velocity got very erratic. Sure can pack a lot of it in there though.