What you guys think about this electric truck?

[jamil]

OK. Without doing a search I wonder what the real world numbers are for keeping one of these things charged up. Is it in line with running an A/C system. What are the true costs. Until I see these real world figures I am not so sure about the costs involved.

I know someone at work who has a Tesla. He has the whoopti-doo charger installed in his garage. He said it’s hard to say what the exact impact is actually on his electric bill at home because it fluctuates depending on other factors, but he figured it was no more than $30 to $40/month. He mostly uses it as his daily driver. He commutes to work, errands, stuff like that. He didn’t say how many miles he puts on it in a month. I put ~$60/week in my Truck. But I’m pretty sure I have a much longer commute than he does.

If I were in the market for another vehicle, I would seriously consider an EV. Not a Tesla, but one of the other brands. My use case would be as a daily driver, so I don’t have to worry about trying to find a charging station. I’d just plug it in every night. Would really save on my fuel expenses.

 

[churchmouse]

I know someone at work who has a Tesla. He has the whoopti-doo charger installed in his garage. He said it’s hard to say what the exact impact is actually on his electric bill at home because it fluctuates depending on other factors, but he figured it was no more than $30 to $40/month. He mostly uses it as his daily driver. He commutes to work, errands, stuff like that. He didn’t say how many miles he puts on it in a month. I put ~$60/week in my Truck. But I’m pretty sure I have a much longer commute than he does.

If I were in the market for another vehicle, I would seriously consider an EV. Not a Tesla, but one of the other brands. My use case would be as a daily driver, so I don’t have to worry about trying to find a charging station. I’d just plug it in every night. Would really save on my fuel expenses.

Interesting. I have heard higher numbers but not documented just guestimates.
What was your avg bill in say "June" before you got the car. Then "June" rolls back around. Peak A/c use etc. How much more did you pay the power company.

Interesting thought.

 

[Hawkeye]

OK. Without doing a search I wonder what the real world numbers are for keeping one of these things charged up. Is it in line with running an A/C system. What are the true costs. Until I see these real world figures I am not so sure about the costs involved.

My dentist is on his second Tesla. I don't know what model(s). He has a charger at home and one at his dentist office. He said he generally charges at home and its programmed to charge at night, after midnight, when there is a better rate for electricity from NIPSCO. From discussions with him, I think he has it programmed to stop charging at, say, 80% for daily use. (I expect his daily drive is maybe 20-30 miles.) . When he goes to Indy for meetings he will set it to charge fully and he sys he's fine on range (Indy trips are probably ~200 miles round trip.)

 

[jek]

OK. Without doing a search I wonder what the real world numbers are for keeping one of these things charged up. Is it in line with running an A/C system. What are the true costs. Until I see these real world figures I am not so sure about the costs involved.

So I started looking into the math for your question and found this article that looks like it'll cover what you're looking for.
https://newsroom.aaa.com/tag/driving-cost-per-mile/

 

[jkaetz]

You could probably make a pretty decent electric vehicle from 200 Makita 18V batteries.

This is effectively what is done. Makita's 18v batteries are made up of 5, 10, or 15 18650 lithium ion cells depending on capacity. EVs simply scale this up with several hundred cells wired to achieve the voltage and capacity they want.

I don’t think it would be all that simple to standardize batteries now. There’s a lot of computer control of various battery parameters just to keep the thing from exploding. It’s not that I don’t think they can get there, it’s that it’s not there now and it probably won’t be for a few years.

That is easy, the controls for the battery are integrated with the pack. The difficult part about a removable module is that you can't design the module around the chassis and driveline, you have to instead design everything around the removable battery module. This is why cell phones and laptops no longer have a "removable" battery.

OK. Without doing a search I wonder what the real world numbers are for keeping one of these things charged up. Is it in line with running an A/C system. What are the true costs. Until I see these real world figures I am not so sure about the costs involved.

IMO this should be easy to track. If you're just using a 110v outlet, get a kill a watt meter and measure. From there I would hope that all the chargers would tell you exactly how many KWh they consume.

My dentist is on his second Tesla. I don't know what model(s). He has a charger at home and one at his dentist office. He said he generally charges at home and its programmed to charge at night, after midnight, when there is a better rate for electricity from NIPSCO. From discussions with him, I think he has it programmed to stop charging at, say, 80% for daily use. (I expect his daily drive is maybe 20-30 miles.) . When he goes to Indy for meetings he will set it to charge fully and he sys he's fine on range (Indy trips are probably ~200 miles round trip.)

This is how they balance battery longevity over ultimate capacity. Holding li-ion cells between 20-80% capacity will yield maximum longevity. But everyone EV manufacturer wants to claim the most range so they give you the option to charge to 100% if you want. This is very similar to DeWalt's 20v Max marketing. Their batteries are identical to everyone else's 18v offerings but they use the full charged voltage to market the higher number.

 

[jamil]

The car’s computer tells you power consumption. No need to measure it. So kwh consumed is always readily available. During charging, it tells you the charging rate.

 

[jkaetz]

The car’s computer tells you power consumption. No need to measure it. So kwh consumed is always readily available. During charging, it tells you the charging rate.

Yes but charging is not 100% efficient. The charger will consume some as well. That can't be left out as it is a cost to the consumer.

 

[actaeon277]

There doesn't have to be a "single " battery pack
Could have a standard.
And then cars use different amounts of packs.

 

[jamil]

There doesn't have to be a "single " battery pack
Could have a standard.
And then cars use different amounts of packs.

That would make things complicated. I think the technology will evolve around its need to exist. If standardizing battery packs is the way the industry reaches larger markets, that's what will happen. Right now it seems to revolve around increasing power density. I read an article maybe a week or so ago about a potential doubling of that in the near future. That's not enough to compete with fossil fuels, but it gets EVs potentially into more use cases than just daily commuter/worker. Economical long hauling is really the most impractical use case.

And for Tesla's specifically, there's also the repair infrastructure that is a very weak point for them. It typically takes months not days or weeks to get one repaired, and usually at an outrageous cost. TFL Cars had a long term model 3 that they accidentally backed into a garage. The damage looked minimal, but it took like 3 or 4 months and was something like over $10K to fix. That's unacceptable.

 

[churchmouse]

There doesn't have to be a "single " battery pack
Could have a standard.
And then cars use different amounts of packs.

Who will change these packs out on a longer journey. Pack stations....???

Adds to the overhead.

We live is an age where people seldom change oil/tires.

 

[HoughMade]

You could probably make a pretty decent electric vehicle from 200 Makita 18V batteries.

There is plenty of precedent for using common batteries for vehicle use. For instance, the original Tesla Roadster, a very good electric vehicle for its day, used over 6000 cell phone batteries. Obviously, cordless tool batteries are more powerful and less would be needed.

 

[jamil]

It’s probably best left for the markets and engineers to work out. It’s evolved the way it has mostly that way. To have a valid disagreement with the way it is, you kinda need to know the reasons it came to be that way.

 

[HoughMade]

It’s probably best left for the markets and engineers to work out. It’s evolved the way it has mostly that way. To have a valid disagreement with the way it is, you kinda need to know the reasons it came to be that way.

Not an expert, but while there were previous iterations of electric vehicles, Tesla is currently pushing all others in this sector. When Tesla started true production vehicles, there were no other manufacturers that were doing the kind of vehicle they were (Model S, I don't count the Roadster because it was a converted Lotus). Tesla was going for all out performance and there was no infrastructure and no other manufacturer to share development with, so the design goals involved optimal performance, not battery changing, at all. There are structural compromises to making the batteries quickly removable and why would you ever make those compromises if there is no reason to and nothing on the horizon which would make that an important feature? The performance goal, was deemed best met when the battery tray was the chassis.

With that being the case, when the major manufacturers come into the market, Nissan, then GM, and finally VW and Ford (and others), they are chasing Tesla. Tesla has not design for standardization (not even in charging). Tesla likes its cult-like status. Why engage in designs that will allow other manufacturers to match you? Since the others are chasing Tesla, they make the same, basic design decision- batteries integrated in the structure, and if not truly structural, buried within it.

Personally, I think that if some other manufacturers would decide on so standards and execute, they would soon be leading the market and would put tremendous pressure on Tesla.

i will add that if we look at the early days of passenger automobiles, they tried many different fuels (gasoline, kerosene, alcohol, electricity) and a couple of different propulsion methods (IC, steam, motors). This was soon winnowed down to gasoline in an IC engine because it had many advantages causing more and more manufacturers to choose them, and with that we could see where the winds were blowing, and the infrastructure grew up to support gasoline as the overwhelming fuel of choice (diesel came much later and not in passenger vehicles initially).

We will see standardization when we know what the standards should be, based upon signals from the market.

 

[actaeon277]

Originally, the thought of an airplane sinking a battleship was laughable.

 

[Route 45]

Originally, the thought of an airplane sinking a battleship was laughable.

Originally, the thought of an airplane was laughable. Thankfully, the Wright Brothers are not famous for pointing out what can't be done.

 

[jamil]

Not an expert, but while there were previous iterations of electric vehicles, Tesla is currently pushing all others in this sector. When Tesla started true production vehicles, there were no other manufacturers that were doing the kind of vehicle they were (Model S, I don't count the Roadster because it was a converted Lotus). Tesla was going for all out performance and there was no infrastructure and no other manufacturer to share development with, so the design goals involved optimal performance, not battery changing, at all. There are structural compromises to making the batteries quickly removable and why would you ever make those compromises if there is no reason to and nothing on the horizon which would make that an important feature? The performance goal, was deemed best met when the battery tray was the chassis.

With that being the case, when the major manufacturers come into the market, Nissan, then GM, and finally VW and Ford (and others), they are chasing Tesla. Tesla has not design for standardization (not even in charging). Tesla likes its cult-like status. Why engage in designs that will allow other manufacturers to match you? Since the others are chasing Tesla, they make the same, basic design decision- batteries integrated in the structure, and if not truly structural, buried within it.

Personally, I think that if some other manufacturers would decide on so standards and execute, they would soon be leading the market and would put tremendous pressure on Tesla.

i will add that if we look at the early days of passenger automobiles, they tried many different fuels (gasoline, kerosene, alcohol, electricity) and a couple of different propulsion methods (IC, steam, motors). This was soon winnowed down to gasoline in an IC engine because it had many advantages causing more and more manufacturers to choose them, and with that we could see where the winds were blowing, and the infrastructure grew up to support gasoline as the overwhelming fuel of choice (diesel came much later and not in passenger vehicles initially).

We will see standardization when we know what the standards should be, based upon signals from the market.

I think it's still going to be whether the market moves that way or not. I get it on the silly decisions Tesla has made just to be different. They've forced themselves into some stupid design decisions because of Musk's ego. He wanted the Cybertruck to have more of an airframe based concept. So the Cybertruck doesn't have a frame, and it's not even unibody. It's body is the structure. Of course, it's not an airplane. So to force that paradigm on a road vehicle he has to have thick steel panels to keep it all together. Okay so now he can't have the same kind of styling freedom he has with his other cars. Those thick steel panels aren't getting pressed into complex shapes. So you get a wedge. That ugly ****ing wedge. Because Musk thinks a truck body has to be designed like an an airplane body.

Back to standardization. I think the market will standardize around the things that make the most engineering and marketing sense to standardize. It kinda feels like to me that as big and bulky as the battery assemblies are now, and as much technology has to be wrapped around that to manage heat and performance and everything else, it's probably not gonna happen soon. There may be a time when battery technology makes them dense enough, small enough, light enough, that it's easy enough just to change them out rather than recharging, that might happen. But I don't think we're anywhere near that now.

I think right now that Rivian has one of the most innovative ideas. They have the "skateboard" concept where the drive-train, battery, wheels, chassis is a unified module like a skateboard. Ford has invested heavily in Rivian, and Rivian happens to have the same wheel base as a Ford F150. So I'm kinda wondering if Ford EV truck will be on a Rivian skateboard. Of course Rivian has a pickup truck and an SUV coming out possibly at the end of 2020. Similar specs as Tesla. And I think that's going to be normal. Kinda doesn't matter how you put it all together, as long as you do it efficiently it's all gonna be kinda the same stuff.

 

[Route 45]

Alright kids, here we go. Uncle H's guide to electric trucks-- what will and won't happen.

The fundamental problem is energy storage. The 35 gallon fuel tanks in a typical pickup truck will have a lower heating value of 43.4 MJ/kg. 35 gallons of fuel is about 96kg (212 lb or so). In other words, the full gas tank stores about 4.17 gigajoules of energy as a lower limit.

In KiloWatt-hours, that is 1158. Or about 55 times the energy that the 20kw-hr batteries of the Workhorse truck can store according to the link posted above. Twenty vs 1158 kW-hr isn't even close. This isn't a "we're almost there, almost closing the gap" conversation at all.

The superior efficiency of electric motors helps close this gap a bit. The gasoline engine will be about 35% efficient. The electric motors will be about 85% efficient. Which means the energy out-- vs the storage energy in-- is more like 405kW-hr for gasoline and 17kW-hr for the electric truck. So the real disadvantage is more like 24x less energy storage instead of 55x.

Regenerative braking and other techs will help the electric vehicle use less energy and recharge its batteries. So the 20kW-hr battery isn't quite the equivalent 1.47 gallon gas tank as the math would suggest just from an energy output. Gasoline trucks lose all the energy once they convert it to kinetic energy in the vehicle because brakes turn it to waste heat. Electric trucks recover some of this. This isn't a trivial thing. A 6600# truck going 62mph has 1.15 mJ of kinetic energy. Every time this vehicle is stopped, ALL of that energy is wasted in the gasoline truck. The electric will recover about half of it.

So an electric "truck" can be a thing, as long as it doesn't have to work hard far away from a recharge, OR if it's just in town where it has very little aero drag and regen braking can help it a lot.

But the electric truck is not the kind of truck that will haul your boat or RV or even a heavy load of firewood 250 miles to grandma's house. And there's no reason to believe it can become so any time soon, because the required advances in battery tech aren't another 10% 20%, but are more like we need a 20x improvement in battery density to break even.

I'll readily admit that a gas tank need not be 35 gal to be useful. So I'd say that even a 10x improvement to battery storage density is required-- and equivalent of a 17.5 gal gas tank. But that's not anywhere near on the horizon. Battery tech is making useful advances on the controls side-- thermal mgt, etc. But controls won't get you 10x. We'd need an entirely new chemistry. And li-po batteries have matured so quickly that a 10x improvement is a huge leap of faith.

That's assuming it's even *possible* at any cost. Never mind trying to make it cost-effective.


There absolutely will be electric trucks in the future. But they will be FedEx trucks and postal trucks and day-trip trucks that stay in town. The "pickup" that is electric will be more like a Honda Ridgeline than a Ford Superduty. As long as you don't need it to do hard work or heavy loads, it can work well. After all, you're just building a larger Tesla. As long as you use it like a Model S, it's fine. How long have we had electric golf carts? Scale that up to a run-around-town multi-stop truck and you'll have something viable *today*.


But the presence of electric trucks does NOT mean the end of gasoline or diesel trucks. For the same reasons that we won't have electric container ships in my lifetime. Nor likely my grandkids' lifetime, either.

(DISCLAIMER: If the international Statists get their way and effectively prosecute their war on fossil fuels to impoverish the world, well then yes, you CAN have anything be electric or hybrid or whatever if the more cost effective option is made illegal or regulated out of existence. But it will impoverish us, and there's no evidence to suggest otherwise).

I don't find a lot to disagree with here, but don't see any debunking, either. I didn't even mention commercial vehicles, so not sure who you are arguing with. Manufacturers are coming out with more and more electric and hybrid vehicles.

Ford slapped the Mustang name on their newest upcoming electric vehicle...a decision that I am betting they did not come to lightly. A fully electric F150 is coming. The Escape will be available in hybrid and plug-in hybrid trims. Toyota's best selling vehicle, the Rav4, is at its best in the hybrid trims. (Best MPG, best HP, most reliable powertrain) A new AWD Rav4 Prime is being released soon with 300+ hp and a 0-60 time of under 6 seconds. By the way, it's a plug-in hybrid with almost 40 miles of range before you even need the gas engine. Honda is bringing a hybrid CR-V to market for the first time ever.

When I say that hybrids and electrics are the future, I don't mean tomorrow or next week. But I see a pretty clear trend from the manufacturers.

 

[Route 45]

Can your truck do this?

[video=youtube;yzwM8KE2L3I]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzwM8KE2L3I[/video]

 

[Percolater]

That's amazing! Hope the Cybertruck does this too, so we can have Cybertanks in the future =)

 

[jamil]

That's amazing! Hope the Cybertruck does this too, so we can have Cybertanks in the future =)

Probably not. Most you get is three motors. Probably two in the back. One in the front.