Officer-involved shooting in Louisville

[KellyinAvon]

Ok. Give me another 20 minutes. I'm almost done at the airport telling the pilots how to land their planes.

Pull back on the yoke, the houses get smaller. Push forward on the yoke, houses get bigger. Put the landing gear down before contacting the ground.

 

[foszoe]

Still waiting to hear who trained you and where. Also curious as to how you plan to get behind the car and how you'll overcome the obvious tactical and psychological pitfalls I discussed, which are the same for cops or not-cops.

There's no need for me to answer. Correct me if I am wrong but your question was followed with statements that say my understanding of any training I have received has been sub par, or my understanding was incorrect, no need to disagree with or disapprove of anyone else besides me.

Maybe not talking to the police is advice I should have followed. I never said what I would do was the only right answer, or even a right answer, but it's not really up for discussion if anything could have been done differently depending on who the YOU was in the original question, as it seems to me that yours and other folks are certain shooting was the only right answer in that situation. I get that now and am fine with it.

 

[foszoe]

You said what YOU would do differently which in essence is the same thing.

So as I see it you owe your apology.

I am not an officer and have explicitly said I was not answering as if I was the officer in the video. I answered it as a civilian who at approx :41 sec mark saw someone grabbing a flagpole in a threatening manner as that was how I took the OP question, "What would I do" because,as a civilian, the first part of the tape would not apply to me.

 

[foszoe]

Having been involved in a shooting that was second-guessed by people that weren't there when I pulled the trigger is my Agent Orange and it flares up when it happens repeatedly in the media and on pro-gun sites like INGO.

Well the real me probably isn't coming across well in this forum. Which is fine by me, it's the internet. I am sorry you or any officer has to take such action but I am also grateful that you have chosen to take on that responsibility. Anyone that makes a threatening move on a uninformed police officer usually gets what they deserve. Responsibility for the guys death in this video is completely his own. In my opinion.

 

[Thor]

Pull back on the yoke, the houses get smaller. Push forward on the yoke, houses get bigger. Put the landing gear down before contacting the ground.

Stay away from the edges of the envelope. They are comprised of space, where you cannot generate lift, lack of speed where you cannot generate lift, the ground where lift ceases to exist and speed past which your airframe ceases to exist. Stay within the envelope and you MAY live. Remember, any landing you can walk away from is a good landing, any landing after which they can still use the aircraft again is a GREAT landing.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Stay away from the edges of the envelope. They are comprised of space, where you cannot generate lift, lack of speed where you cannot generate lift, the ground where lift ceases to exist and speed past which your airframe ceases to exist. Stay within the envelope and you MAY live. Remember, any landing you can walk away from is a good landing, any landing after which they can still use the aircraft again is a GREAT landing.

And don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash or you might be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog **** in and out of Hong Kong.

 

[Thor]

And don't let your ego write checks your body can't cash or you might be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog **** in and out of Hong Kong.

Hey...I resemble that remar...oh, all right I never flew cargo planes. And right now flying out of Hong Kong s**ks because, well, China now thinks they own all of the South China Sea...and are building surrogate carriers 100miles from the Philippines on former coral reefs.

I wonder why Greenpeace isn't harassing them with trawlers...of course at this point this qualifies for
So...never mind...

 

[KellyinAvon]

While it's not really my style, I'll post about the subject of the thread instead of my usual thread-jacking.

Ok, looked at the video. First of all, excellent name for a Smoke Shop. Second, individual suspected of assault who is quite possibly under the influence of alcohol/drugs/both grabs a flag pole that I'd guess was 6 feet long. Third, suspect with flag pole assaults police officer who has a drawn weapon.


The officer showed incredible restraint and used deadly force because he had to. A taser gives you one shot and if both barbs don't connect? You have a stun-gun in your hand and the other guy still has a 6 foot flag pole.

 

[j706]

Not to criticize the officer but he really waited to long. After all he got hit. Luckily it didn't disable him. This one isn't even a close call no matter how many witnesses disagree. BTW who grabs a pole and swings it at a cop like that? A person with a death wish.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

There's no need for me to answer. Correct me if I am wrong but your question was followed with statements that say my understanding of any training I have received has been sub par, or my understanding was incorrect, no need to disagree with or disapprove of anyone else besides me.

Maybe not talking to the police is advice I should have followed. I never said what I would do was the only right answer, or even a right answer, but it's not really up for discussion if anything could have been done differently depending on who the YOU was in the original question, as it seems to me that yours and other folks are certain shooting was the only right answer in that situation. I get that now and am fine with it.

I think there absolutely is a reason to say who trained you. If your understanding is correct of what they taught, they are teaching people things that are dangerous and that should not go unchecked. If someone was teaching people to fight electrical fires with water, if everyone keeps their mouth shut once they learn that's wrong then people who didn't have that advantage continue to learn the wrong thing and get hurt as a result. So, who trained you and where?

I've tried to not be snarky in my response. I legitimately want you to understand that your plan is wrong. Completely wrong. Following it will increase your odds of being hurt or killed. Not that it was wrong just for an officer, but its also wrong for a civilian.

 

[Frank_N_Stein]

Well the real me probably isn't coming across well in this forum. Which is fine by me, it's the internet. I am sorry you or any officer has to take such action but I am also grateful that you have chosen to take on that responsibility. Anyone that makes a threatening move on a uninformed police officer usually gets what they deserve. Responsibility for the guys death in this video is completely his own. In my opinion.

And yet you second-guessed his actions by saying how awesomely you would have performed and would have never had to pull the trigger. Hopefully you will never be faced with a life-or-death situation where your split-second decision will be examined, critiqued, and possibly even ridiculed by someone who wasn't there, had never been involved in a similar situation, and likely had no training to back up their opinion.

 

[jsharmon7]

OP. I found your question nuanced. I think the officer went to an option he is trained to cosnider. I think the shoot is justifiable, but that wasn't necessarily your question.

As a civilian, I think I would have out ran him, used the car as interference, and or would have tried to grab the other end of the flagpole.

My intention wasn't to post a question which was nuanced or loaded in any way. Originally my question was only going to be whether people felt they would have fired on the man in that situation. I then realized that the circumstances of the situation a police officer would be in may be quite different than for a non-officer. In other words, the police officer placed himself in that situation by the nature of his job whereas a non-officer would not have been in the same set of circumstances or armed with the same tools.

The reason I posed the questions was simply because many of the articles I've seen have quotes from people saying that he shouldn't have shot him, or should have used less-lethal options first. I was just curious as to what INGO thought of those opinions. My opinion is that I have seen less-lethal options fail to be effective and I would not bet my life on them. Tasers, pepper spray, batons, etc. were never designed to confront individuals with deadly weapons. The only other option that makes sense is that some people must not believe a flag pole could cause serious bodily injury or death.

 

[IndyDave1776]

A man attacks a police officer with a dangerous instrument and gets his stupid ass shot. Why is this even an issue?

I am certainly of the belief that police should not be overly aggressive in the application of force, particularly when completely unnecessary, but I certainly do not expect them to go to the opposite extreme of being tackling dummies or pinatas!

 

[foszoe]

I think there absolutely is a reason to say who trained you. If your understanding is correct of what they taught, they are teaching people things that are dangerous and that should not go unchecked. If someone was teaching people to fight electrical fires with water, if everyone keeps their mouth shut once they learn that's wrong then people who didn't have that advantage continue to learn the wrong thing and get hurt as a result. So, who trained you and where?

I've tried to not be snarky in my response. I legitimately want you to understand that your plan is wrong. Completely wrong. Following it will increase your odds of being hurt or killed. Not that it was wrong just for an officer, but its also wrong for a civilian.

We will disagree on discussing who and where. I am certain I misunderstood what I was told since other experts are certain it was wrong and I will leave it at that versus dragging someone else other than myself into it. I will listen better the next time. The fault lies entirely with me.

The way I interpret your advice is draw, stand my ground, and fire if encroached upon, moving rearward only to create reaction distance. Would that be a correct interpretation? If not, you can better understand my first paragraph.

 

[IndyDave1776]

My intention wasn't to post a question which was nuanced or loaded in any way. Originally my question was only going to be whether people felt they would have fired on the man in that situation. I then realized that the circumstances of the situation a police officer would be in may be quite different than for a non-officer. In other words, the police officer placed himself in that situation by the nature of his job whereas a non-officer would not have been in the same set of circumstances or armed with the same tools.

The reason I posed the questions was simply because many of the articles I've seen have quotes from people saying that he shouldn't have shot him, or should have used less-lethal options first. I was just curious as to what INGO thought of those opinions. My opinion is that I have seen less-lethal options fail to be effective and I would not bet my life on them. Tasers, pepper spray, batons, etc. were never designed to confront individuals with deadly weapons. The only other option that makes sense is that some people must not believe a flag pole could cause serious bodily injury or death.

1. Yes, an officer is likely to find himself required to be involved in situations the rest of us could walk away from.
2. Yes, an officer is likely to have tools not generally available.
3. Less than lethal devices are nice when they can be safely used, with 'safely' including reasonable egress or opportunity to try something else if they fail. I do not expect anyone to risk harm to himself based on an all or nothing bet on something which is less than reliable as are most less than lethal devices.
4. Armies fought wars for millinea with weapons equal or less effective than flag poles and managed to kill people with them on a battlefield scale. It should be no different one on one. After all, the staff (the stick, not your personnel) has been an effective weapon for a very, very long portion of history.

 

[foszoe]

And yet you second-guessed his actions by saying how awesomely you would have performed and would have never had to pull the trigger. Hopefully you will never be faced with a life-or-death situation where your split-second decision will be examined, critiqued, and possibly even ridiculed by someone who wasn't there, had never been involved in a similar situation, and likely had no training to back up their opinion.

I didn't second guess anyone. I wish you would read and reread my posts in this thread without prejudice. You are using a preconceived opinion as a lense.

I have been in a life or death situation with a 44 magnum 6 inches from my chest, loaded. I survived. I wasn't second guessed. I was told what I did was stupid, kinda like in this thread.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

We will disagree on discussing who and where. I am certain I misunderstood what I was told since other experts are certain it was wrong and I will leave it at that versus dragging someone else other than myself into it. I will listen better the next time. The fault lies entirely with me.

The way I interpret your advice is draw, stand my ground, and fire if encroached upon, moving rearward only to create reaction distance. Would that be a correct interpretation? If not, you can better understand my first paragraph.

If you're going to cite your training as your basis for such statements as:

I am trained in the art of avoiding conflict if necessary, not policing, and can all but guarantee that the time between the gun draw and the attack with the flag pole, I could have completed a behind the car end run and drawn without a shot being fired. It would take pretty decent training to engage that flagpole across a car. Nor am I saying that I would not have fired a shot at a later time, perhaps backing away from the car as an intermediary if I realized the guy was still intent on bodily harm so as to give myself a clear shot upon continued engagement, but my reaction to the flagpole charge would not have been that of the officer in question.

The responsibility of a police officer in that situation is different from a civilians. The goal is the same. Establish control of the situation.

Be prepared to back it up.

I didn't second guess anyone.

Of course you did. You MMQ'd it as to how you thought you would handle it, with the clear implication that how it was actually handled was wrong.

The way I interpret your advice is draw, stand my ground, and fire if encroached upon, moving rearward only to create reaction distance. Would that be a correct interpretation?

In this instance, yes. As facts change, so does the plan. My advice is to actually get some training, and from someone with the credentials to train based on reality.

 

[foszoe]

Of course you did. You MMQ'd it as to how you thought you would handle it, with the clear implication that how it was actually handled was wrong.

Frank and yourself are so intent at reading what you want to read instead of what I have written that further conversation is pointless. Several times, I have said the officer was justified in very clear language. Yet you both resort to telling me what I clearly implied without considering what I clearly wrote. I have also said the reason I would have reacted differently is because I am a civilian and would not have been acting as an officer would and/or should in that situation. MMQ'ing in my understanding is saying what someone else should have done and I believe I stated the officer in question did the right thing more than once. Unlike, Frank said, I did not say I would have removed myself from the situation without firing a shot. Your criticism of my actions, as a civilian, is valid and receiving due consideration and I would welcome your recommendation on a training class.

 

[The Bubba Effect]

Are you guys done beating up on foszoe yet?

 

[roscott]

Are you guys done beating up on foszoe yet?

Should we file a complaint for excessive force?