Indiana ban on gay marriage ruled unconstitutional

[CathyInBlue]

Personally I think there are better things they could waste taxpayer money on than fighting this and beating a dead horse.

At least PA's Gov. Corbett had the sense to see the invoice on the wall and opted not to waste any taxpayer dollars on fighting the rising tide.

 

[Liberty Sanders]

Depends on the moral reference. Whose morals are you referring to?

Why does that matter? If I'm doing something that does no tangible harm to any other person, can what I'm doing BE immoral?

 

[gravitas73]

I wasn't talking about my morals and I didn't mention my religion did I? How do you know what my religion is or if I am religious? I was talking about the founder's morals. You know as well as I that he wasn't talking about Islam or Scientology (wasn't invented yet) or any other religion, as other religions were considered pagan at that time.



Quoting John Adams is laughable because you say so? What did he know about the constitution anyway. Silly me.



I am however extremely impressed with your amazing ability to psychoanalyze a perfect stranger using less than 100 words he posted on an internet forum. Bravo. With those kind of abilities your opinion must be more correct than mine or anyone else's here. Might as well lock this thread down, since there's nothing more to discuss.

John Adams was also President when he signed the Treaty of Tripoli which read "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion…”

 

[CathyInBlue]

Why does that matter? If I'm doing something that does no tangible harm to any other person, can what I'm doing BE immoral?

Isn't masturbation still held to be immoral by many faith traditions?

 

[buckwacker]

John Adams was also President when he signed the Treaty of Tripoli which read "The government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion…”

Because politicians never vote for or sign any legislation/treaty unless they fully agree with every word contianed therin.

Signing a treaty as President is a bit different than volunteering a personal opinion regarding the foundational principles of the US Constitution. Which do you think provides a better indication of his thinking?

 

[gravitas73]

Because politicians never vote for or sign any legislation/treaty unless they fully agree with every word contianed therin.

Signing a treaty as President is a bit different than volunteering a personal opinion regarding the foundational principles of the US Constitution. Which do you think provides a better indication of his thinking?

I guess I should have mentioned that Adams WROTE the Treaty and submitted it to Congress for approval, and then signed it after they did.

 

[Redhorse]

I'm finding two ways to look at this: how is marriage defined (if at all) in the constitution, and how does the tenth amendment play in all of this? Also, is it the governments' (local, state, and federal) right to govern morality (on the bases other's rights aren't infringed upon)? Essentially, this is what gay marriage boils down too, right, morality issues? These are the questions that need to be asked. Personally, I don't see where the government has any business legislating mortality if the rights of others aren't being infringed upon.

From a legal standpoint, how does my previous post hold up?

 

[jamil]

Isn't masturbation still held to be immoral by many faith traditions?

Well, I guess they can ban masturbating and do random .... nevermind. I'm really not going to go there.

 

[mrjarrell]

From a legal standpoint, how does my previous post hold up?

Marriage is not defined by the Constitution. Forget the 10th Amendment and pay attention to the 9th. It comes before the 10th in order of importance. Morality has no place in the issue, other than to attempt to justify banning the Rights of a minority, (government also has no Rights to attempt to impose one groups morality upon another).

 

[Redhorse]

Marriage is not defined by the Constitution. Forget the 10th Amendment and pay attention to the 9th. It comes before the 10th in order of importance. Morality has no place in the issue, other than to attempt to justify banning the Rights of a minority, (government also has no Rights to attempt to impose one groups morality upon another).

That's exactly the point I wanted to make. In all honesty, where does the government (local, state, or federal) have any power to legislate morality?

 

[Expat]

That's exactly the point I wanted to make. In all honesty, where does the government (local, state, or federal) have any power to legislate morality?

By power of force. They make laws, if you don't follow them they can throw you in jail or fine you. As long as the governed, consent to those laws being made and enforced, then they have all the power they need.

 

[buckwacker]

That's exactly the point I wanted to make. In all honesty, where does the government (local, state, or federal) have any power to legislate morality?

Because that is what governments do. If they don't legislate/enforce morality, what do they do? The absence of the enforcement of some standard of morality is by definition anarchy.

 

[Redhorse]

Because that is what governments do. If they don't legislate/enforce morality, what do they do? The absence of the enforcement of some standard of morality is by definition anarchy.

Of course, but does marriage fall into this? My understanding of law is that it is in place to protect everyone's rights. How is marriage infringing on the rights of others?

 

[buckwacker]

Of course, but does marriage fall into this? My understanding of law is that it is in place to protect everyone's rights. How is marriage infringing on the rights of others?

That's your moral standard. The moral standard of others may be different.

 

[Redhorse]

That's your moral standard. The moral standard of others may be different.

Yes, but again I ask, are any rights being violated by marriage? Murder, for example, violates the victim's rights to life. How does marriage result in a victim of infringed rights?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

That's your moral standard. The moral standard of others may be different.

And this is why morality cannot be the basis of law.

There is only one standard of behavior that is fair and just to all, and that is whether the behavior of one person causes harm to another.

There can be no doubt that gay marriage outrages the religious sensibilities of some people. But that does not constitute harm.

 

[bmbutch]

And this is why morality cannot be the basis of law.

There is only one standard of behavior that is fair and just to all, and that is whether the behavior of one person causes harm to another.

There can be no doubt that gay marriage outrages the religious sensibilities of some people. But that does not constitute harm.

Some may believe it causes harm as it becomes "worldly acceptable", the lifestyle then becomes the same, which could lead some astray into a rather poor future (Un-ending future even)

 

[buckwacker]

Yes, but again I ask, are any rights being violated by marriage? Murder, for example, violates the victim's rights to life. How does marriage result in a victim of infringed rights?

And this is why morality cannot be the basis of law.

There is only one standard of behavior that is fair and just to all, and that is whether the behavior of one person causes harm to another.

There can be no doubt that gay marriage outrages the religious sensibilities of some people. But that does not constitute harm.

The premis of your argument is incorrect. Like I said government must enforce some moral standard otherwise we have anarchy. You just claimed your moral standard is superior. What make yours more correct than someone else's?

 

[Liberty Sanders]

The premis of your argument is incorrect. Like I said government must enforce some moral standard otherwise we have anarchy. You just claimed your moral standard is superior. What make yours more correct than someone else's?

I have claimed nothing of the sort. What government must enforce is not morality. Government's job is to prevent aggression against its citizens, either by itself or by individuals

Neither the government or any individual can presume to prevent me from engaging in behavior that harms no one, and marrying a person of the same sex harms no one.

 

[buckwacker]

I have claimed nothing of the sort. What government must enforce is not morality. Government's job is to prevent aggression against its citizens, either by itself or by individuals

Neither the government or any individual can presume to prevent me from engaging in behavior that harms no one, and marrying a person of the same sex harms no one.

Mortality is simply what is defined to be right or wrong. Anarchy is the absence of the enforcement of any moral standard. Since you agree that some standard must be enforced, you are claiming that your moral standard is superior.