Police Unholstered Firearm

[jdmack79]

Nope, you didn't do anything wrong. But the cop didn't do anything wrong, either.



Unfortunately, some out there appear to be oblivious to the fact that we've had, in the very recent past, mass shootings at places like schools, theaters, and parking lots. They also appear to believe that anyone and everyone around them should KNOW their intent, regardless of their actions.

Wrong. I don't care what has been in the news recently, it does't make the situation illegal. Everyone around them SHOULD wait to see their intent. Two guys talking and examining a gun in the parking lot shouldn't arouse even the slightest worry. If one of them was visible upset or they were constantly looking over their shoulder you might have cause for concern. The simple presence of a gun does not mean a crime is about to be committed.

They're apparently unaware that crime is predicated on 'intent' and I guess the thinking is that, before LEO's or anyone else investigates or interjects, those observing should stand by idly and 'wait to see' if their intent is to actually perpetrate a crime. Then, IF they actually DO perpetrate a crime, react.


Again, wrong. Cops SHOULD wait in a situation like this to see someone's intent. If the two guys were happily talking to each other in public examining a gun, a little common sense would lead to the belief that they weren't going to shoot up the gas station.

Such thinking in this day and age is both naïve, and foolhardy. Why not meet outside a bank, or maybe a school?

I would argue it is naive and foolhardy to think that everyone with a gun is a criminal.

Think about it. WHY didn't the Buyer and Seller meet at the home of one or the other? Usually the response is "for safety reasons". That's fine. At the same time, don't they have a responsibility to consider the safety concerns of all others in that same public place that aren't involved in the transaction?

We're all glad this was just an innocuous transaction, but those around them could not possibly have known it was innocuous. So the response from the LEO was appropriate. A little better planning in the future on the part of the Buyer and Seller will diminish or prevent such incidents.

Better to plan ahead, and perhaps avoid places like gas stations, banks, schools, and other such places where prior lethal incidents have recently transpired.

Better to be proactive and figure this out now. 'Cause if an inadvertent and unfortunate incident happens with such a FtF transaction, the gun-grabbers will most assuredly use the incident to blast pro-gunners, and ban such transactions altogether.

Which is what they're ALREADY trying to do. WHY give them a valid reason?

Responded in red.

 

[sig-guy]

With that said, this is why when I do a ftf transaction, I try to do it inside my vehicle. Never know if a cop like this one is around, or a anti 2a individual, who will call 911 and make my quick ftf transaction into a long ordeal filled with unnecessary inconvenience.

Course, I have never bought a long gun and tried to look at it in a car. lol
I have bought pistols this way and think it's better to sit inside one of the vehicles.

While I have no problem open carrying, I'm not out handleing and coonfingering it out in public. Handleing them in public is just plain dumb.

Remember the guy who pulled out his pistol in a bar to show his buddy and got kicked out for the remainder of 2013?

 

[Kutnupe14]

So, a cop sees two guys handling a shotgun and an acceptable response is to have drawn his firearm and shout commands.....and this is acceptable to most of you?

I'd be filing a complaint if it were me OP.

And what the heck does an eBay deal have to do with anything? Let eBay deal with eBay, why does he care if you know each other or met on the Internet to sell a gun?

...and I'd be saying "good luck with that?"

 

[in625shooter]

Nope, you didn't do anything wrong. But the cop didn't do anything wrong, either.

Unfortunately, some out there appear to be oblivious to the fact that we've had, in the very recent past, mass shootings at places like schools, theaters, and parking lots. They also appear to believe that anyone and everyone around them should KNOW their intent, regardless of their actions.

They're apparently unaware that crime is predicated on 'intent' and I guess the thinking is that, before LEO's or anyone else investigates or interjects, those observing should stand by idly and 'wait to see' if their intent is to actually perpetrate a crime. Then, IF they actually DO perpetrate a crime, react.

Such thinking in this day and age is both naïve, and foolhardy. Why not meet outside a bank, or maybe a school?

Think about it. WHY didn't the Buyer and Seller meet at the home of one or the other? Usually the response is "for safety reasons". That's fine. At the same time, don't they have a responsibility to consider the safety concerns of all others in that same public place that aren't involved in the transaction?

We're all glad this was just an innocuous transaction, but those around them could not possibly have known it was innocuous. So the response from the LEO was appropriate. A little better planning in the future on the part of the Buyer and Seller will diminish or prevent such incidents.

Better to plan ahead, and perhaps avoid places like gas stations, banks, schools, and other such places where prior lethal incidents have recently transpired.

Better to be proactive and figure this out now. 'Cause if an inadvertent and unfortunate incident happens with such a FtF transaction, the gun-grabbers will most assuredly use the incident to blast pro-gunners, and ban such transactions altogether.

Which is what they're ALREADY trying to do. WHY give them a valid reason?

^Agree^ When yo go to a public place and have a firearm out for an extended period of time what do you really think is going to happen in most cases. The LEO responded fine. If the LEO was really wanting to be a pain he would have made the op unload his other firearm and run through that ringer but they did not. As far as the "ebay" comment there is nothing illegal about saying a something like that.

 

[churchmouse]

Yup.......

Yeah but when LEO draws his sidearm on folks they have to share with the class.

Not the smart place to do the clandestine gun deal. Pick a big store with a big lot and stay out towards the edge away from prying eyes. Stay between the vehicles and do not make a big scene. I always try to do these deals "In the vehicle" so as not to get the sheeple aroused.
In this day of shooter/bomber insanity how would you expect LEO to respond, you had a long gun out and in hand, (legal or not) and he had no idea as to your intentions. If he had never faced this before emotions probably ran high with him but all of you left in one piece. Having his sidearm drawn was a natural response. Hell, I would have drawn mine.

 

[HotD]

Just wanting to interject a few things:

There are a lot of cops, which I mean to say too many cops.......that believe that the non-LEO possession of firearms is not only unwise, but is somehow and on some level, contrary to law.

These cops also believe that their perception of their own vulnerabilities associated with the job, justify treating people in a manner that they would consider to be abuse, if a non-LEO would treat a dog in a similar manner.

As a previous poster has already stated, I've also heard and read the phrase about a cop going home at the end of the shift to be the first rule of police work. That should certainly be the goal of every cop, but at what point does violating the personal dignities and liberties become too much to this end? ***Does it surprise anyone that it doesn't take too many such incidents for one person, to sour their cooperation and attitude to police, and place the police in greater peril by withholding future cooperation and possibly turning their head in the future when they see an officer in trouble?***

It seems that city cops are the worse offenders in this arena, though clearly, not all city cops act this way. Gun control appears to be more acceptable in these areas by the general population there, and the politicians reflect this consensus. As such, violations of basic liberties are more acceptable when it comes to firearms.

The above statement seems to be less prevalent in the burbs and rural areas, as there seems to be more fallout from rude behavior. This isn't to state that this is always the case and with every cop in these areas.

This cop who is the subject in the OP (provided the OP story is accurate), could have respectively and just as safely approached the OP and his friend to investigate, without being a jerk.

Is the OP smart for making a gun deal where he did? Probably not, but it isn't unlawful and certainly not potentially worth losing his life from an overly jerkish cop for doing so.

 

[churchmouse]

Just wanting to interject a few things:

There are a lot of cops, which I mean to say too many cops.......that believe that the non-LEO possession of firearms is not only unwise, but is somehow and on some level, contrary to law.

These cops also believe that their perception of their own vulnerabilities associated with the job, justify treating people in a manner that they would consider to be abuse, if a non-LEO would treat a dog in a similar manner.

As a previous poster has already stated, I've also heard and read the phrase about a cop going home at the end of the shift to be the first rule of police work. That should certainly be the goal of every cop, but at what point does violating the personal dignities and liberties become too much to this end? ***Does it surprise anyone that it doesn't take too many such incidents for one person, to sour their cooperation and attitude to police, and place the police in greater peril by withholding future cooperation and possibly turning their head in the future when they see an officer in trouble?***

It seems that city cops are the worse offenders in this arena, though clearly, not all city cops act this way. Gun control appears to be more acceptable in these areas by the general population there, and the politicians reflect this consensus. As such, violations of basic liberties are more acceptable when it comes to firearms.

The above statement seems to be less prevalent in the burbs and rural areas, as there seems to be more fallout from rude behavior. This isn't to state that this is always the case and with every cop in these areas.

This cop who is the subject in the OP (provided the OP story is accurate), could have respectively and just as safely approached the OP and his friend to investigate, without being a jerk.

Is the OP smart for making a gun deal where he did? Probably not, but it isn't unlawful and certainly not potentially worth losing his life from an overly jerkish cop for doing so.

I was not there so the story is totally on the OP's perception of LEO's actions.
That said (and I do not know where you live) spend a bit of time in the city around the areas where even civilians have to be on high alert. These areas are rife with those who do not recognize or respect any form of authority.
Rocky Ripple has seen it's share of these folks and the surrounding areas are rough to say the least. I do a lot of work in and around there. I am always SA and spidy sense on high. I have drawn my sidearm in this area to change the minds and intent of a few of those people I am referring to.
Not saying LEO was totally right....just saying I kind of understand.
The world is going crazy.

 

[marcp]

Well as thing's are these day's the leo was right in my eye's to check people handling a firearm in a gas station parking lot. I believe if it was me i would have chosen my favorite gun shop or sporting good's parking lot.

 

[wrnyhuise]

Personally I don't see anything wrong with the officers reaction being that you were at a gas station. It is one of those places that typically get robbed so two guys with a shotgun should raise suspicion.

I agree totally with this. The only way the current laws can be enforced is for officers to be proactive just like this. There is no need for new laws but Leo's being proactive like this makes the difference. He didn't take the gun he just checked you guys out. well done for him. I can't help but think it more officers did this on a regular basis things could possibly get a bit better and these gun control freaks could shut up.

 

[Bunnykid68]

Resident cop hater here. I agree with both sides. Gas station is a poor choice because they are targets for armed robbery more so than other places. You were not carrying said shotgun in a sling over your shoulder and were potentially holding it in a threatening manner from a casual observer.

Did the officer point is gun at you or just have it at the ready?

 

[Thegeek]

In this case, I think the cop was justified in detaining and checking IDs. Two guys with a shotgun at a gas station. The officer probably assumed that he was at the right place at the right time.

Suspicion of about to commit a crime is just as powerful as suspicion that you've committed a crime. Everyone has heard it; cops don't prevent crime, they only respond after a crime is committed. Trust me, if a cop is in a position to do so, they will prevent a crime. In this situation, I would say his suspicion was "attempted robbery".

OP, I think you chose a bad spot to make the exchange and this is the result. Nothing really wrong, but definitely questionable.

 

[drillsgt]

He knew nothing was going on hence his, '...I figured this was some kind of ebay deal...' comment. Ebay? obviously he doesn't have a clue. Because people that are going to rob a gas station park get out and hang around checking out their rifle in plain view for several minutes?? Running up there with his gun drawn barking commands, it'd be funny if there wasn't the potential for disaster.

 

[fallenangel1]

I kind of wonder if the LEO (maybe LEO's in general) over react on purpose like this in an effort to make the experience as bad as possible so that those involved are all that more afraid/aware/clandestine in the future. Or maybe its done in an effort to pressure civilians to not carry at all?

Was this an odd situation, sure. But as people have pointed out, the OP was in the open inspecting a rifle and the LEO commented that he thought this may be an ebay deal. IMHO he admitted that he didn't believe that a crime was being committed he just saw something that he didnt want to see and took action.

At this point if he wanted to harass the OP and his friend, their choice of location probably opened them up for that. BUT!! To draw his weapon on them!?!? I think that was too much.. Had the ebay comment NOT been made one could make the argument that the officer thought they may be planning to rob said gas station, therefore his actions may have been acceptable, but he said it so he cant back-peddle and say that he thought they were doing anything else now.

What he should have done is announced himself and slowly walked towards them WITHOUT drawing his weapon, all the while gauging their reactions and mentally making a plan of action if things were to go sideways.

 

[6mm Shoot]

The C.O.P. stated he thought that they were doing some sort of deal. So why did he have his gun drawn.

As far as the paper work thing goes it is my understanding that any time a Police officer asks for it you have to give it up. That is how they know that you are aloud to carry. That is part of our rites we gave up so we can carry.

Because of the bad we all have to prove that we are not doing any thing wrong in this day and age. Is that the way it should be? NO! Yet that is the way it is.

I have been insulted by police because they had no clue what was going on and just jumped in and acted like the ass that many are. It has been said more than once that if police didn't have a badge they would be on the other side of the law.

This police officer over reacted like most of the police do before they know what is going on. The guys with the shot gun were wrong. Every one on this site knows you don't get out of car with a shotgun and wave it around in a gas station and not expect someone to say anything. They are lucky the didn't get shot by the station operator.

Come on people use your head. Half the people in our country hate guns and the other half is us. The police have a very hard job. Do you really think that if you had seen two guys in a gas station with a shot gun you would have went up to them unarmed and asked what's up duds? It isn't going to happen. Get real. Welcome to the world the way it is.

 

[flatlander]

Bad choice of spots for a ftf. "Man with a gun" call. I don't see anything wrong with anybodies reaction. JFC people, it seems like a bunch of people on here think that any eencounter with LEO's is bad if they do ANYTHING!How was the officer suppose to know what was going on? I'm sure all the HSLD people on here have that wonderful spidey sense to know immediately what's going on at a glance. Sheesh, the officer was being doing his job! 2 armed men, in a parking lot of a stop and rob with a weapon in hand, gee golly nuthin' could be going on here! Officer wasn't a d*** but maybe should have kept opinions out about egay but overall it was a good deal all the way around.
Relax Francis, nobodies rights were violated.

Bob

 

[Kutnupe14]

BUT!! To draw his weapon on them!?!? I think that was too much...

So why did he have his gun drawn.

What are you guys reading? The OP never indicated that the officer drew down on him, he simply stated "unholstered." There's kinda a BIG difference there, and I can only assume that if the officer did point his gun at them, he would have included that nugget in the story.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I can't believe some of the responses in this thread. Two guys playing with a gun in the parking lot of probably the most robbed type of business in the nation, an officer approaches, checks them out (noticing he did take OP's side arm or "run" numbers on any weapon), and then goes about his business. These guys didn't get a SWAT call out, nor were they curb stomped, but people still want to complain?

 

[Kutnupe14]

What he should have done is announced himself and slowly walked towards them WITHOUT drawing his weapon, all the while gauging their reactions and mentally making a plan of action if things were to go sideways.

That's pure fantasy right there bud. Walk up to two "unknowns" handling a gun that is..... (Rule #1). Gauge their reactions while keeping you weapon snapped and safely secured, when their weapon is in hand? So "if" these guys were "bad" guys, who do you think would get off the first shot, if it came to that?

 

[Dirtebiker]

What are you guys reading? The OP never indicated that the officer drew down on him, he simply stated "unholstered." There's kinda a BIG difference there, and I can only assume that if the officer did point his gun at them, he would have included that nugget in the story.

Isn't "drawing" and "unholstering" the same thing?

 

[buckstopshere]

...and I'd be saying "good luck with that?"

Why would you say that? Would the OP not be able to file a complaint or is it that it wouldn't do any good?

I would not assume that anything would happen to the LEO. You can look at the atrocities committed by a small percentage of LEOs who get to continue to do their job unabated. I'm sure nothing would come of the complaint but I would at least want it on record that I believe his actions to be over zealous.