Question regarding college campus carry

[Feign]

Here's something I thought of while in the shower this morning.

There are some classes at colleges that high school students can take. Even though carrying may be against the school's rules, since there is an "extension" of school property in the Indiana IC laws that says you cannot carry on K-12 property or any school function, would a college campus then be considered a K-12 school function thereby barring any carry?

 

[hoosiertriangle]

Because there is no case law on the subject, its not clear what would likely happen. My opinion on the subject would be that even though the high school student is attending college classes on a college campus in relation to his high school activities, the college campus is not converted into a K-12 protected area by the high schooler's presence. School property is defined below by IN statute. I would think that there would not be an issue.

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following: (i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
If this scenario played out as you think it could, it would make all school field trips a perpetual roaming land mine of carry issues for the average person.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Because there is no case law on the subject, its not clear what would likely happen. My opinion on the subject would be that even though the high school student is attending college classes on a college campus in relation to his high school activities, the college campus is not converted into a K-12 protected area by the high schooler's presence. School property is defined below by IN statute. I would think that there would not be an issue.

IC 35-41-1-24.7
"School property" defined
Sec. 24.7. "School property" means the following:
(1) A building or other structure owned or rented by:
(A) a school corporation;
(B) an entity that is required to be licensed under IC 12-17.2 or IC 31-27;
(C) a private school that is not supported and maintained by funds realized from the imposition of a tax on property, income, or sales; or
(D) a federal, state, local, or nonprofit program or service operated to serve, assist, or otherwise benefit children who are at least three (3) years of age and not yet enrolled in kindergarten, including the following: (i) A Head Start program under 42 U.S.C. 9831 et seq.
(ii) A special education preschool program.
(iii) A developmental child care program for preschool children.
(2) The grounds adjacent to and owned or rented in common with a building or other structure described in subdivision (1).
If this scenario played out as you think it could, it would make all school field trips a perpetual roaming land mine of carry issues for the average person.

Good point on the case of first impression, however the question as I see it isn't whether it's school property but rather whether or not it qualifies as being used for a school function, which is not defined at all. (i.e. the example (not case law) of the Indy Zoo being used for a school field trip and being off limits to carry. In theory, the law is written such that anywhere that a school would take students could be called a school function, as could any business where a HS student is doing "work/study".

All the more reason to lobby our legislators and get that law changed ASAP!

Blessings,
B

 

[CarmelHP]

Yes, I would prefer a legislative solution. The Court of Appeals is unpredictable.

 

[Six Forty-Two]

This is the way I understand the scenario when high school students take classes on the college campus:
When a high school student leaves the high school and arrives on a college campus, he or she is a college student (they are paying college fees). The high school is allowing him or her to leave for an educational reason, but the activity is not a high school activity. Even if they are receiving high school credit, it is not a high school class.

 

[Griffeycom]

If you are taking classes at the college while you are still in high school you are still considered a student of that college. Thereby violating school rules (most likely) of possessing a firearm while on Campus.

 

[dburkhead]

Good point on the case of first impression, however the question as I see it isn't whether it's school property but rather whether or not it qualifies as being used for a school function, which is not defined at all. (i.e. the example (not case law) of the Indy Zoo being used for a school field trip and being off limits to carry. In theory, the law is written such that anywhere that a school would take students could be called a school function, as could any business where a HS student is doing "work/study".

All the more reason to lobby our legislators and get that law changed ASAP!

Blessings,
B

Once upon a time, one of my Junior High classes went on a field trip some distance from our home town (School was in Cambridge, OH--location of the trip was in Columbus). On the way back we stopped for lunch at a Restaurant (Pizza Hut, as I recall, but for purposes of this, it could really be anywhere relatively inexpensive).

So, let's say I'm at such a place eating my lunch, when a school bus pulls into the parking lot with a bunch of kids to break for lunch on their field trip.

Does that 1911 in my Crossbreed Holsters Super Tuck now constitute a felony?

 

[schwaky18]

Once upon a time, one of my Junior High classes went on a field trip some distance from our home town (School was in Cambridge, OH--location of the trip was in Columbus). On the way back we stopped for lunch at a Restaurant (Pizza Hut, as I recall, but for purposes of this, it could really be anywhere relatively inexpensive).

So, let's say I'm at such a place eating my lunch, when a school bus pulls into the parking lot with a bunch of kids to break for lunch on their field trip.

Does that 1911 in my Crossbreed Holsters Super Tuck now constitute a felony?

It may but the IN. S.C. would put an end to that real quick. Ofcourse you will be broke from fighting it, but you will be a free man.

Honestly though I don't think it would be. You would have to **** someone off very high up for them to want to bring this kind of attention to our F'ed up gun laws and themselves.

 

[jsgolfman]

Having a school function somewhere has nothing to do with it, the operative words are "owned or rented". The Zoo, Pizza Hut, Toys R Us, etc. are not owned or rented in this context.

 

[Feign]

Having a school function somewhere has nothing to do with it, the operative words are "owned or rented". The Zoo, Pizza Hut, Toys R Us, etc. are not owned or rented in this context.

Excellent. I'll take that as I could carry pretty much anywhere but school grounds, adjacent grounds, and school buses should they be anywhere around.

 

[GunGuyEVV]

It's very simple. Guns don't go well with schools. If you want to carry a gun don't go to a place of learning. If you want to go to school, don't carry a gun. If you feel that you need to do both at the same time.... apply to a different school.

 

[GunGuyEVV]

and that includes school functions

 

[NateIU10]

It's very simple. Guns don't go well with schools. If you want to carry a gun don't go to a place of learning. If you want to go to school, don't carry a gun. If you feel that you need to do both at the same time.... apply to a different school.

How do guns "not go well with schools?" What is it that makes a school different than any other place I carry? Please, elaborate on your point.

 

[dburkhead]

It's very simple. Guns don't go well with schools. If you want to carry a gun don't go to a place of learning. If you want to go to school, don't carry a gun. If you feel that you need to do both at the same time.... apply to a different school.

Should the students of Columbine have applied to a different school? How about the students at Virginia Tech? UT Austin? Red Lake High School? Northern Illinois University?

Does someone drops their child at school on the way to work and then picks them up on the way home lose their right to self defense the rest of the day simply because of that?

Really, what is it about schools that somehow, magically, make guns "not go well" with them? Your explanation should include why they suddenly stopped being acceptable in the past few decades. When I went to High School, archery was part of gym class. Not too long before that, in rural schools teens having guns with them for hunting after school was not exactly rare and shooting clubs/teams were fairly common. Somehow, guns went well enough with schools then. Why do you think it changed?

 

[Bill of Rights]

Having a school function somewhere has nothing to do with it, the operative words are "owned or rented". The Zoo, Pizza Hut, Toys R Us, etc. are not owned or rented in this context.

Would you please quote the section of the Indiana Code that defines a school function as requiring that the property be owned or rented? If you can do this, perhaps all would be well, but the code as I read it says,
IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.
(emphasis, both bold and red, mine)
The property does not have to be rented or owned, just used.

Please, though, if you are able to do so, prove me to be mistaken. I'd be grateful to not have to worry about violating that law.

Blessings,
B

 

[Bill of Rights]

It's very simple. Guns don't go well with schools. If you want to carry a gun don't go to a place of learning. If you want to go to school, don't carry a gun. If you feel that you need to do both at the same time.... apply to a different school.

and that includes school functions

Interesting perspective. Incorrect, from my point of view, but I also would like to see your reasoning as to why you feel this way.

See... having a gun with you just means you are prepared to deal with a crime emergency, much as having fire extinguishers in the building allow people to deal with fire emergencies, and CPR and First Aid training prepare people to deal with medical emergencies. It's like an insurance policy: You hope you never need it, but you're sure glad you have it if you do.

Guns do not "not go well with schools": The gun, in and of itself, does nothing. It takes a human hand to pull that trigger and make it propel a projectile at high speed. The brain controlling that hand is what makes the decision if it will be used for good or evil. On another board on which I participate, a poster in another state made reference to his daughter, a national shooting champion. She was not even permitted to wear a shirt expressing her pride in having won a competition to school. However , let us, for the sake of this example, put this girl in Columbine High School, about nine years ago, and imagine, again, just for the example, that students were not forbidden to protect themselves. Given this situation (a gun was present and a need arose for it to be used) I have little doubt that this girl would do so, would accurately hit her target, and therefore would quickly end the threat to her teachers, her classmates, and most importantly, to herself.

The problem is not the gun, it is the person using it. If they have ill intent, nothing will dissuade them from it. If they have good intent, nothing will persuade them to evil.

I look forward to your reply.

Blessings,
B

 

[Indy317]

Would you please quote the section of the Indiana Code that defines a school function as requiring that the property be owned or rented? If you can do this, perhaps all would be well, but the code as I read it says,
IC 35-47-9-2
Possession of firearms on school property, at school function, or on school bus; felony
Sec. 2. A person who possesses a firearm:
(1) in or on school property;
(2) in or on property that is being used by a school for a school function; or
(3) on a school bus;
commits a Class D felony.
(emphasis, both bold and red, mine)
The property does not have to be rented or owned, just used.

Please, though, if you are able to do so, prove me to be mistaken. I'd be grateful to not have to worry about violating that law.

Well, the argument one would make is that the property (ie: McDonalds, the zoo) is not being used just by a/the school. It is being "used" by everyone and open to the public. Now, I could see that if the zoo was closed to the public and they were having a day where only 5th graders were at the zoo via a school field trip, then a better case for an arrest could be made. I know that I would not arrest anyone who was at the zoo with their family for having a firearm just because a few school fieldtrips are there. I feel the use would have to be exclusive to a "school function." Even then, I can't see arresting a parent who took the gun to the zoo to help watch the kids.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Well, the argument one would make is that the property (ie: McDonalds, the zoo) is not being used just by a/the school. It is being "used" by everyone and open to the public. Now, I could see that if the zoo was closed to the public and they were having a day where only 5th graders were at the zoo via a school field trip, then a better case for an arrest could be made. I know that I would not arrest anyone who was at the zoo with their family for having a firearm just because a few school fieldtrips are there. I feel the use would have to be exclusive to a "school function." Even then, I can't see arresting a parent who took the gun to the zoo to help watch the kids.

You could make that argument, yes, but unfortunately, the law doesn't include anything specifying exclusive use. I agree with you, that would make sense, it just isn't the law. If I'm reading your post correctly, you're a LEO and if you are, thank you for your loose reading of the law-It really doesn't make sense to make criminals of people whose sole desire is to protect themselves.



Blessings,
B

 

[gage]

I'm all for teachers carrying guns.
Here at IUPUI although you can't carry on campus you can check weapon in with campus police and then conveniently pick up on the way back. A descent policy for those not wanting to leave it in the vehicle to prevent it getting stolen.

 

[NateIU10]

I'm all for teachers carrying guns.
Here at IUPUI although you can't carry on campus you can check weapon in with campus police and then conveniently pick up on the way back. A descent policy for those not wanting to leave it in the vehicle to prevent it getting stolen.

What about students? When you say "you can't carry," you are talking about who exactly? Students? Teachers? Anyone on campus that is not affiliated with the university?