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Shootin' Left
- Thread starter FordMan79
- Start date
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I am having some problems zeroing in my Glock19. I am shooting a pretty tight group at 15-20ft but it is pretty far left of center, just outside a 8" target. I tapped my rear sight left hoping to compensate, but it did nothing.
Any suggestions? Grip, trigger pull, etc?
I've done that. It's your trigger pull. Only use your index finger and thumb on your grip/firing hand to squeeze the trigger. The other fingers are just there to keep a light hold on the pistol.
Your support/offhand does the recoil work along with controlling the pistol.
Seriously, I used to do it at 3 yards or 40--- always left. Move your sight back and work on trigger pull.
EDIT: to clarify, watch your front sight and practice trigger pull-- you'll know what you are doing wrong when you see your front sight move left as the trigger breaks.
That pie chart is complete hogwash. It has next to no application for two handed defensive style pistol shooting.
Move your rear sight back to the middle of the slide. You are shooting left because you aren't making a good trigger pull. Your grip, finger position, etc has nothing to do with it. Pull the trigger straight back to the rear without disrupting your sight picture and your shots will land where you want them.
Move your rear sight back to the middle of the slide. You are shooting left because you aren't making a good trigger pull. Your grip, finger position, etc has nothing to do with it. Pull the trigger straight back to the rear without disrupting your sight picture and your shots will land where you want them.
Most handgun accuracy issues are caused by the shooter anticipating the recoil. Try the dummy round drill: Throw a few snap caps or empty cases in your mags and see what happens when you pull the trigger. If you are developing a bad habit in anticipation of the recoil, this will show it.
Trigger finger past the first knuckle. Just use the tip of your finger.
Do I win?
No. Finger position on the trigger has no effect on where the bullets go.
Step 1: Align your sights properly.
Step 2: Pull the trigger without disrupting your sights.
NOTHING else matters.
Anybody who was at the YSINTG class in Indy last year watched me shoot 8" steel plates from 35 yards one handed looking at my sights through the viewfinder on my camera. As well as some other tomfoolery...
Their finger position isn't the cause, that is my point. You can easily pull the trigger without disrupting the sights with very little finger on the trigger, or with your finger in the trigger guard as far as it will go. Hell you can shoot accurately with your finger never even touching the trigger at all.
"Trigger finger placement" is a solution looking for a problem.
LotsofGlocks
Master
Ok, myare in, you can be the last one standing.
I agree with ya wally!!!!
It's disingenous at best to completely dismiss finger placement on the trigger in terms of effective accuracy (much like dismissing grip). Sure, it's possible to fire the gun accurately using all kinds of weird gyrations, but that doesn't help someone who is trying to get bullets where he wants them to go.
Sure, the essential factor in getting bullets where you want them to go is to have the gun aligned with where you want them to go and to press the trigger directly backward without disturbing the alignment of the gun. That's absolutely true, but it also doesn't help quite a few people having trouble.
Grip and finger placement on the trigger are valid and important tools that assist a shooter in accomplishing the simple (but not necessarily easy) task of pressing the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of gun. Gross and subtle differences can play huge role in the accuracy a given shooter can attain, especially for multiple shots. Just because someone can make a single shot using any kind of funky non-grip and using their eyelashes to stroke the trigger doesn't really help someone improve.
Also, we are aware that yiour mentor Steve and apparently you don't see merit in the "accuracy chart." I don't use it either. However, to assert that it's "hogwash" is silly and doesn't help you make your point. Plenty of competent and a few outstanding instructors make good use of that chart or similar charts. Louis Awerbuck is always my primary example in this regard. I know what he can do to help people improve and it's not "hogwash."
Yeah, we get it. It's about pressing the trigger straight back. Some of us mere mortals need some ways to help us accomplish that task. Simply choosing to do it isn't helpful to many people I've encountered and can lead to significant frustration.
As far as the original poster is concerned, I'd have to see him shoot to see what he's doing. I'd want to shoot his gun (or have someone else shoot it) to see where it should be hitting. Knowing the reason why he's not pressing directly to the rear can be very useful in helping him learn to press directly the rear.
I might even make some suggestions about grip and trigger finger placement in my ignorance, but it will probably help him get the job done too. For instance, I'd be curious to know if he's milking the grip a little. Even if he's pressing absolutely directly to the rear, if his pinkie finger is torquing the gun to the left as the shot is breaking, it's going to go left and more likely low/left. If he doesn't have enough finger on the trigger, it may be physically impossible for him to press it to the rear without pushing to the left a little. Fingers only work in certain directions and if they can't act on the trigger within a range that allows for the NET force to be directed toward the rear of the trigger guard, it's going to be tough to get the trigger to rearward without the the component of the force pushing to the left to cause the gun to move in that direction.
Sure, the essential factor in getting bullets where you want them to go is to have the gun aligned with where you want them to go and to press the trigger directly backward without disturbing the alignment of the gun. That's absolutely true, but it also doesn't help quite a few people having trouble.
Grip and finger placement on the trigger are valid and important tools that assist a shooter in accomplishing the simple (but not necessarily easy) task of pressing the trigger directly to the rear without disturbing the alignment of gun. Gross and subtle differences can play huge role in the accuracy a given shooter can attain, especially for multiple shots. Just because someone can make a single shot using any kind of funky non-grip and using their eyelashes to stroke the trigger doesn't really help someone improve.
Also, we are aware that yiour mentor Steve and apparently you don't see merit in the "accuracy chart." I don't use it either. However, to assert that it's "hogwash" is silly and doesn't help you make your point. Plenty of competent and a few outstanding instructors make good use of that chart or similar charts. Louis Awerbuck is always my primary example in this regard. I know what he can do to help people improve and it's not "hogwash."
Yeah, we get it. It's about pressing the trigger straight back. Some of us mere mortals need some ways to help us accomplish that task. Simply choosing to do it isn't helpful to many people I've encountered and can lead to significant frustration.
As far as the original poster is concerned, I'd have to see him shoot to see what he's doing. I'd want to shoot his gun (or have someone else shoot it) to see where it should be hitting. Knowing the reason why he's not pressing directly to the rear can be very useful in helping him learn to press directly the rear.
I might even make some suggestions about grip and trigger finger placement in my ignorance, but it will probably help him get the job done too. For instance, I'd be curious to know if he's milking the grip a little. Even if he's pressing absolutely directly to the rear, if his pinkie finger is torquing the gun to the left as the shot is breaking, it's going to go left and more likely low/left. If he doesn't have enough finger on the trigger, it may be physically impossible for him to press it to the rear without pushing to the left a little. Fingers only work in certain directions and if they can't act on the trigger within a range that allows for the NET force to be directed toward the rear of the trigger guard, it's going to be tough to get the trigger to rearward without the the component of the force pushing to the left to cause the gun to move in that direction.
We need to focus on the root issue before adjusting grip and trigger finger. More than likely this is a recoil flinch or PIP. Changing his finger placement won't do anything for this shooter. He already admitted he is placing his finger on the trigger "properly."
Let's focus on one issue at a time. Shooting accurately is not the same as shooting accurately quickly. It is my opinion that people jump way too quickly into grip, stance, trigger finger, etc when the shooter is still patterning like a shotgun or flinching terribly. They don't need their thought process cluttered up with other stuff to remember other than the very basics of the fundamentals, which is a sight picture and trigger press. Until they can knock out the ten ring and have a grasp on exactly what it takes to make a shot, the other stuff is unimportant.
Louis Awerbuck is a well respected trainer in this industry and certainly has the resume to back it up. It is his experience and ability to teach that helps solve shooters problems, not what is printed on the paper they are shooting at. I still stand by my opinion of the chart.
The personal jab you tossed in there was a nice touch, though.
Everybody misses. I miss. I flinch. It's natural human reaction.
But when I miss, I know it's because I either screwed up my sight picture, or my trigger press, or both. I don't blame other factors that are unrelated to the accuracy of my shot.
Agreed 100%.
My issue isn't with teaching a proper grip and trigger finger placement. It isn't to say that those two attributes will never have a correlation to accurate shooting. My point is that people toss out those ideas when in fact for slow fire accurate shooting, they don't mean squat. He absolutely should be seeking out the instruction of someone who can coach him through his issues, and nobody can pinpoint exactly what the issue is without seeing him shoot. But too often people jump right on grip and trigger when the OP even admitted later on his trigger finger is in the 'proper' place. That alone proves those recommendations are not going to help him.
I like to break things down to the absolute core of the fundamentals, and we can break accurate shooting down into the two items I posted above. Let's get there first, then work on the rest.
My :
The chart and suggestions are just some of the varied ways we humans screw up Step #2. The steps are inarguable, however accomplishing them requires doing something more than merely knowing them. If you can cure the problem by doing something differently, it helps to know which things you should try changing. Once you are hitting POA, you can backtrack to see how exactly you were doing it wrong (what exactly was disrupting the sights during trigger pull) and explore any of several options to minimize the problem's return.
Knowing and believing the simple truths of the matter won't hit bullseyes - learning how to not violate them will.
Still learning...
Your adjustment direction should have made the problem worse, driving your point of aim further to the left.
:The chart and suggestions are just some of the varied ways we humans screw up Step #2. The steps are inarguable, however accomplishing them requires doing something more than merely knowing them. If you can cure the problem by doing something differently, it helps to know which things you should try changing. Once you are hitting POA, you can backtrack to see how exactly you were doing it wrong (what exactly was disrupting the sights during trigger pull) and explore any of several options to minimize the problem's return.
Knowing and believing the simple truths of the matter won't hit bullseyes - learning how to not violate them will.
Still learning...
...it is pretty far left of center
...I tapped my rear sight left hoping to compensate, but it did nothing.
Your adjustment direction should have made the problem worse, driving your point of aim further to the left.
trigger finger important with long range rifle work not so when shoot humans
this class in az we just finished a weeks worth had 3 shooter all new females with 625 smiths one hand to use both fingers to press the trigger she was able to make great hits very unorthodox but worked for her when asked about her choice of guns said there boss told them these were the best guns for them ...n frames hummm,
she was more than able to make her shots 10 yards and in outside of that not so much.. with accuracy we showed them trigger means about nothing period pens knives sticks were used to create one hole groups while in some circles it means a lot in others it means nothing while i respect Rhino as a shooter and trainer there are some camps that cant be changed in thinking nothing wrong with doing what works for them or what works for you but trigger finer placement is least of the issues
this class in az we just finished a weeks worth had 3 shooter all new females with 625 smiths one hand to use both fingers to press the trigger she was able to make great hits very unorthodox but worked for her when asked about her choice of guns said there boss told them these were the best guns for them ...n frames hummm,
she was more than able to make her shots 10 yards and in outside of that not so much.. with accuracy we showed them trigger means about nothing period pens knives sticks were used to create one hole groups while in some circles it means a lot in others it means nothing while i respect Rhino as a shooter and trainer there are some camps that cant be changed in thinking nothing wrong with doing what works for them or what works for you but trigger finer placement is least of the issues
