The Legend of Argentine Pistols

[BE Mike]

My father has a copy of a Colt 1911 a1 that was made in Argentina. It is a 1927 Argentine Sistema. It is well made and AFAIK, all the parts interchange with a GI 1911. He has always told me that it was made from the steel of a sunken German ship. I just read an article in The American Rifleman about the story. In reality, the story of where the steel came from concerns the Ballester Molina pistol. It is a .45 ACP pistol which at first glance looks similar to the 1911. The ship that was sunk off the coast of Argentina was the infamous Nazi ship, the Graf Spee. Although I've seen the movie "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee" and handled the Ballester Molina pistols over the years, the story of the connection of the ship and the pistols is fascinating to me.

 

[BogWalker]

Hoping to get a Ballester Molina if C&R comes back before they all sell out. Definitely an interesting firearm. So were they really made from it?

 

[SERparacord]

Don't confuse them with Boker Knives.

 

[BE Mike]

Hoping to get a Ballester Molina if C&R comes back before they all sell out. Definitely an interesting firearm. So were they really made from it?

The article gave the impression that they weren't, but they said that it was still a possibility. The British still have a lot of what transpired classified. If you are going to get one of the pistols, it would be fun to read the article in The American Rifleman. It is the Feb. 2014 issue. If you aren't a member of the NRA, I'm sure there is a member close by who would loan you his/ her copy.

 

[BogWalker]

Just got the issue in the mail today actually.

 

[indy1919a4]

BE MIKE... As an owner of one of these fine firearms.. I have tried several times to get to the bottom of this story.... Was the steel used in the Ballester Morlinas salvaged form the Graf Spree.

Just to get to the Bottom line of the story, No one can prove nothing..

Knowns:
The Graf Spree was salvaged by the Argentines
The Argentines Made the Ballester Molinas out of metal..

But the trouble is there is no paper trail that anyone can point to that proves the steel from the Graf Spree went into those guns.. (For that fact no one can point to any paper trail to tell where the steel from the Graf Spree went, or where the metal came from to go into the Molinas)

Ever so often it seems some writer will get a head of steam up to prove or Disprove the Ballester Molina/Graf Spree link.

One that comes to mind is an article is the Argentine magazine Magnum,.. After you read that you will be convinced the steel was from the Graf Spree.. But others show how the steel came from America and some even claim England.

The bottom line is you can pretty much find proof to what ever side you want to believe, The records are just not there.

Now if you ask my Humble opinion -- Darn straight the Molinas were make form the Graf Spree..

Just a fun fact the Aluminum from the Hindenberg was sold back to Germany as Scrap metal.. But that is another tale...

 

[rob63]

FWIW, they did a chemical analysis of the metal used in one of the pistols for the article and they did prove that it does not match German made armor plate from the period. They then offered the caveat that it could still have been made from other metal from the ship rather than from the armor plate. I don't know enough about ship salvage (actually I don't know anything at all about ship salvage) to have an opinion on the likelihood of that.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

My father has a copy of a Colt 1911 a1 that was made in Argentina. It is a 1927 Argentine Sistema. It is well made and AFAIK, all the parts interchange with a GI 1911. He has always told me that it was made from the steel of a sunken German ship. I just read an article in The American Rifleman about the story. In reality, the story of where the steel came from concerns the Ballester Molina pistol. It is a .45 ACP pistol which at first glance looks similar to the 1911. The ship that was sunk off the coast of Argentina was the infamous Nazi ship, the Graf Spee. Although I've seen the movie "The Pursuit of the Graf Spee" and handled the Ballester Molina pistols over the years, the story of the connection of the ship and the pistols is fascinating to me.

These are both neat pistols, but they are not the same. The Systema 27 parts are indeed interchangeable with the Colt 1911, but the Ballester Molina parts are not. The Ballester also doesn't have a grip safety. I'd like to have one of each! Looks like Sarco still has both, although they say to call to check availability. I think I checked once and at that time, they had them but they hadn't gone through their refurb process (mainly replacing all the springs).

Sarco, Inc. - PISTOLS

 

[BogWalker]

These are both neat pistols, but they are not the same. The Systema 27 parts are indeed interchangeable with the Colt 1911, but the Ballester Molina parts are not. The Ballester also doesn't have a grip safety. I'd like to have one of each! Looks like Sarco still has both, although they say to call to check availability. I think I checked once and at that time, they had them but they hadn't gone through their refurb process (mainly replacing all the springs).

Sarco, Inc. - PISTOLS

Where I was planning to get mine. Going to call on them tomorrow, hopefully they'll still have some of the lower condition (in my price range) examples in stock when I get C&R. Might just have to go through FFL.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Very little of the Graf Spee was salvaged at any point. Captain Langsdorff didn't just scuttle the ship but detonated the magazines and blew the s**t out of it. Only the portions of the superstructure which threatened passing ships were removed after the war with the government declaring the wreck unsafe and prohibiting further salvage efforts. Also noteworthy is that the ship was scuttled on the way out of Montevideo harbor and was/is under the jurisdiction of the government of Uruguay, not that of Argentina. There were stories of part of the armor being salvaged and used to reinforce the locks on the Panama Canal although I am not willing to swear to this. In any event, over time, the ship was sucked into the mud and it would likely be quite a challenge even to find the thing (likely completely submerged in river-deposited mud) today.

 

[BogWalker]

double post

 

[indy1919a4]

Wow Doggy, I loved the Juan Perons Personal Presidential Guard Guns, That Sarco is also offering. That is a pretty cool little piece of history there..

By the way I am still laughing at the comment Sarco made at the end of the listing for the full story Watch the Movie Evita...

 

[indy1919a4]

Just some things on display still from the Graf Spree

Admiral Graf Spee - Gallery - The Salvage

The rangefinder is a must for any proper collection

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Where I was planning to get mine. Going to call on them tomorrow, hopefully they'll still have some of the lower condition (in my price range) examples in stock when I get C&R. Might just have to go through FFL.

Hey, post what they tell you here if you wouldn't mind. When I called them it was close to 2 years ago.

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Wow Doggy, I loved the Juan Perons Personal Presidential Guard Guns, That Sarco is also offering. That is a pretty cool little piece of history there..

By the way I am still laughing at the comment Sarco made at the end of the listing for the full story Watch the Movie Evita...

I liked that too!

 

[BE Mike]

Just some things on display still from the Graf Spree

Admiral Graf Spee - Gallery - The Salvage

The rangefinder is a must for any proper collection

For some reason the range finder looks to me like a robot with outstretched arms. I can almost hear it saying, "about that far".

 

[Kirk Freeman]

BE Mike, how can I put this . . . as someone who knows Argentine gun nuts, they are just as full of nonsense as the guys at your local gun shop.

In Argentina you say "hablar con los dientes hacia fuera." (to talk with your teeth out--teeth talk)

 

[indiucky]

Very little of the Graf Spee was salvaged at any point. Captain Langsdorff didn't just scuttle the ship but detonated the magazines and blew the s**t out of it. Only the portions of the superstructure which threatened passing ships were removed after the war with the government declaring the wreck unsafe and prohibiting further salvage efforts. Also noteworthy is that the ship was scuttled on the way out of Montevideo harbor and was/is under the jurisdiction of the government of Uruguay, not that of Argentina. There were stories of part of the armor being salvaged and used to reinforce the locks on the Panama Canal although I am not willing to swear to this. In any event, over time, the ship was sucked into the mud and it would likely be quite a challenge even to find the thing (likely completely submerged in river-deposited mud) today.

It is my understanding that most of the ship was salvaged...Argentines let nothing go to waste. I also believe that divers still go to the wreck and many have been lost doing so..My Mother In Law grew up there and she said she remembers seeing the structure of the "German ship" above water in the early 60's...The Government may have "prohibited" salvage but salvage did continue...Argentina is a funny place and "prohibited" just means you have to give someone a cut of what you find or front them some money...Argentina has no steel to speak of and the only iron there came from a meteor that crashed about 15,000 years ago...The early conquistadors collected fragments from the meteor and planned on starting a forge but the location of the impact site is in the middle of nowhere...


I have got Ballester Rigaud made in 1938 or so (one of the first "Ballesters") and the steel in it was quality steel and I know it would not have come from the Graf Spee...Per capita Argentina was the richest Nation on Earth at that time and would have NO problem procuring steel from any Country they chose....I have a small collection of "Argentine .45's" and just the one Argentine wife.....







This one is the Ballester Rigaud (above) and is very early...Like the first thousand made (or close to it).









What's great is the wife lets me buy all the Argentines I want!!!! I tell her it's because I respect her culture and want to celebrate diversity.....

As you can see I collect the Sistemas as well as the Ballesters....I also have four different types of holsters, three military and one civilian....All from Argentina.....

Whenever I am getting ready to plop down some cash for another Argentine I can't help but think of the Joan Jett song...
"I Hate Myself for Loving You"

Link to Campo Del Cielo Meteor crash

Campo del Cielo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Someone mentioned "Evita"...When my daughter was born we named her "Eva" after my Great Grandmother down in Muhlenberg County but....When my wifes kin got word that we named her "Eva" they went ballistic!!!! I had to explain we named her after my Great Grandmother...My wifes family were small business owners and did not think much of Eva Peron and sort of looked at her the way many (who work or have a small business)look at our current President...

 

[BE Mike]

Wow, I have never seen any Ballester Molinas that were in such pristine condition! All I ever remember seeing over the years are a bunch of well-worn pistols with little or no finish. The grips on yours even look brand new! Nice collection!

 

[indy1919a4]

WOW INDIUCKY, that is one fantastic looking Ballester I have never seen one so Clean before.. It looks unused...

BUT COME, on you think you can get away with that group shot.. Come on man my eyes are not that good anymore.. PLEASE a little show and tell on the others you have there..

I find it amazing how many different variations and Unit markings they have...


You are correct Evita is one of those Political Personalities that seems to inspire both Devotion and Anger.. Even after Death she traveled the world and was a Political lightning rod

The Mirror story is a bit much, Bit it is Pithy

Eva Peron: How Evita's embalmed body was transported thousands of miles for two decades and kept on husband's dinner table - Mirror Online

BBC News - The 20-year odyssey of Eva Peron's body