Personal Defense: When does a .380 beat a 9mm?

[lovemachine]

When Does a .380 Beat a 9mm? - Personal Defense Network


Interesting article.

 

[gregkl]

It was. I wish the writer would have indicated which 9 had the punishing recoil. And which .380 he liked.

I am still on the fence as to what I want for deep concealed carry. I would prefer to stick with 9mm to not have to add another caliber. However, if it's uncomfortable to shoot, then I don't think I want that either.

That said, when shot my brother's PPK in .380, it surprised me a little at the amount of recoil. I guess I didn't realize how much felt recoil a blowback design imparts on the shooter.

 

[ghostdncr]

My 9oz. KelTec is intended to provide cover as I fight to/draw my primary handgun (G23 or 1911), which is then used to provide cover as I fight to my primary longarm (M4/.300 Blackout HBAR carbine/870 Police/MP5), and so on.

Trust me, a perp will NOT feel BETTER after I've dumped 2-5 .380 cal 90gr Hydra-Shoks into him.

 

[Cameramonkey]

It beats a 9 when the owner decides to carry the pocket gun instead of not carrying the 9 because its not as convenient or comfortable. (with the alternative being that you just dont carry ANYTHING becase you dont want the hassle of the 9)

I'll admit, my wife's LCP is nice and small... so small I totally forget its in my back pocket. My G27/G23, 1911, etc unfortunately arent nearly as comfy.

 

[lovemachine]

It was. I wish the writer would have indicated which 9 had the punishing recoil. And which .380 he liked.

I am still on the fence as to what I want for deep concealed carry. I would prefer to stick with 9mm to not have to add another caliber. However, if it's uncomfortable to shoot, then I don't think I want that either.

That said, when shot my brother's PPK in .380, it surprised me a little at the amount of recoil. I guess I didn't realize how much felt recoil a blowback design imparts on the shooter.

In the comments on the bottom of the article, the writer says the gun in question was a Kimber Solo.

 

[tjh88]

When is the .380 better. As said above, when you have it on you verses bigger caliber in the truck console. I keep my Colt Mustang .380 for a drop in the pocket for that quick trip into the store or when having trouble concealing something bigger. Nice article. I feel a bit better about the .380 now.

 

[Disposable Heart]

Having shot and lust for a Beretta 84 and 85, I think they are ideal: Compact enough for carry, large enough to shoot, MILD recoil compared to other sized firearms, such as a G19 or others and elegance, pure elegance. Kind of why I like the Makarov: I've seen guys take their main squeeze to go shooting, with a Mak, and had immediate success. Just large enough for a full purchase on the stocks, yet small enough to carry VERY easily. CZ-83s fall into this category as well.

Just because I don't have the latest or greatest round/bullet/pellet dispenser, doesn't mean I'm going to lose THAT easily. The concept of defense is cause enough shock/trauma to stop the threat. That means making holes and placing a majority of those holes in the engine room or bridge of the attacker. A vast majority of .380s are small and difficult to shoot, probably skewing the data that they are poor stoppers as they offer marginal accuracy due to lack of ergonomic accuracy in a defense shooting environment.

I have a strong feeling we are going to see this argument more and more in the future as the G42 takes hold. A .380 can be viable as long as the dispenser is viable. People will harp on their Keltecs, "Oh, mine is accurate and reliable", I get it, but on the other hand, I cannot (and realistically, BS aside, you can't either) shoot it as accurately or quickly as us shooting a Beretta 84 or similar sized weapon. Just can't happen.

 

[churchmouse]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[rockhopper46038]

It gets dogged a bit because of its early teething problems, but I hardly go anywhere without my S&W Bodyguard .380. It's not always (or even usually) my only gun, but it's so easy to slip in a pocket and make disappear. It's never hiccuped and notwithstanding the laser I never use, the iron sights on it are really quite good - good enough to shoot pin matches with, in fact. So I guess I fall in to the "better than a 9mm that doesn't get carried when it's needed" camp.

 

[NIFT]

Dr. Gary K. Roberts, Director of the Letterman Army Institute for Research (LAIR,) and noted terminal ballistics expert recommends against the .380 as a choice for a defensive caliber. Here is an excerpt of what Doc Roberts has to say:

"Many small, easily concealed semi-automatic pistols which are recommended for law enforcement backup or concealed carry use fire .380 ACP or smaller bullets. While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds,they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them."

For the full article, go here:
BUG's: .380 ACP vs. .38 Sp

Certainly, the .380 beats, "Please, don't hurt me!" but there are better choices both in 9mm and .38 spl.

 

[rockhopper46038]

I looked up the Ellifritz data and it is an interesting read.

 

[Hornett]

From Dr Roberts quote:

While these small caliber handgun bullets can produce fatal wounds,they are less likely to produce the rapid incapacitation necessary in law enforcement or self-defense situations.

A .380 uses a .355" diameter bullet which is exactly the same as the .355" dia bullet of the 9mm. The difference is in the size of the bullet (90 gr for a 380 and 115 gr for a 9mm typically) and the velocity of the bullet (950 to 1000 fps for a .380 and 1200 to 1300 fps for a 9mm) The muzzle energy of a 9mm is about double that of the .380. When I see someone that is supposed to be really smart call a .380 small caliber, I lose respect for him and his entire article loses credibility because he doesn't even know the correct terminology.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I agree with Dr. Roberts when you blindly look at the .380 at the 10,000ft view.

However if you look carefully at specific self defense rounds, you CAN get decent, reliable penetration and expansion. I cant find the youtube video right off, but he found that the vast majority of 380 rounds were sub par. It boiled down to only about 5 overall, with the fifth being that pretty much any cousin of that round that used the same bullet. (it was either the Hornady FTX I think, but research yourself as the other (XTP?) failed)

Even ones you would expect that work well in larger calibers like Golden Sabres performed poorly with unreliable penetration/expansion.

My wife carries the only one of those 4 I could find on the shelf, Cor-bon.

Taken as a whole, the .380 leaves alot to be desired and I would agree with him. But when looked at closer you do find a few diamonds in that big bucket of coal.

 

[45 x 11]

I appreciate the OP linking this article as it is a thought process I've been going over in my own mind for awhile after realizing that the micro 9mm semi-auto I owned wasn't working for me. I'm not going to blame the gun, it is a great gun and probably one of the best options in its size class (CM9). I just wasn't comfortable shooting it for a variety of reasons. Some of those reasons include control/follow-up speed and accuracy. I'm sure that for many people a small 9mm works very well. And if you can shoot it and be comfortable with it, great! But there are other people who face the challenge of having to consider more compromise(s). I think in certain situations, such as those outlined in the article, a .380 makes a lot of sense, but the user must know and understand the inherent pros and cons of the gun/round. A lot of people talk about their small 9mm or pocket pistol as being a gun they don't shoot often - just something they get a couple of mags out of the way quickly at the range before shooting their preferred guns. I can understand that and was much the same way... and then I realized that as a carry piece and a difficult shooter it was the gun I needed to be practicing more with, not less.

If you can effectively shoot a small 9mm, great! Or maybe uncomfortable at first, you find you can practice enough to become proficient with one - also a win! There's no question in my mind 9mm is the better round, but only if you can master it in the gun you're using. ...I also wonder with the Glock 42, particularly if it enjoys a lot of sales/success, if it will spur even more development/improvements for the .380ACP round.

 

[richardraw316]

I vote for more firearms chambered in 9mm makarov. Maybe a conversion barrel for the g26 is in order.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

.380 isn't as weak as a lot of people seem to think. It'll blow through both sides of a human skull, fracture a human femur, or do a through-and-through on a fat guy's gut. Ideal? Probably not, especially because light bullets slow down faster. I understand the concerns if it hits a heavy jacket and starts to expand too early. Its sort of a borderline between using FMJ and HP and I've never felt comfortable recommending one over the other. I'm starting to lean more toward FMJ in the .380 though, just due to those penetration concerns with a rapidly expanding light weight bullet not going deep enough. Still not enough to really make a firm recommendation, but that's my inclination.

One thing I will address is the author's take on recoil. I'm sure we all know there is an actual recoil and a perceived recoil. Yes, a .380 will have less actual recoil, because it has less energy to impart to the shooter. There are a lot of factors that figure in to how that energy is perceived by the shooter, though. A heavier gun will accelerate slower, and will result in less felt recoil. Proper recoil springs will spread the application of the energy out over a longer period of time. High bore axis and lots of reciprocating mass will feel different than low bore axis and light reciprocating mass. Softer grips will be less punishing than harder grips. Etc. Etc. There are few choices on non-subcompact .380s. There are a bajillionity-seven choices in 9mm.

While I believe a .380 is adequate and is a reasonable self defense caliber, given the plethora of 9mm and the incredible engineering and materials available today to make them both small and "recoil reducing" (so to speak), there's less and less reason to choose one over a 9mm as handgun design improves.

 

[SERparacord]

It seemed to work just fine in the theater shooting.

 

[VERT]

Can anybody say Glock 42, Walther PK380, Ruger LC380, Bersa Thunder, Beretta 84.........

I agree that this is much less a cartridge discussion then it is a firearm platform discussion. I personally do not care for the ultra small 9mm or really ultra small 380s. For instance the LC9/LC380 sized guns make more sense to me as a 380. I will admit I am in the minority.

My personal pocket gun is a snubby 38 SPL. I will continue to watch and evaluate the other offerings

 

[ru44mag]

.380 isn't as weak as a lot of people seem to think. It'll blow through both sides of a human skull, fracture a human femur, or do a through-and-through on a fat guy's gut. Ideal? Probably not, especially because light bullets slow down faster. I understand the concerns if it hits a heavy jacket and starts to expand too early. Its sort of a borderline between using FMJ and HP and I've never felt comfortable recommending one over the other. I'm starting to lean more toward FMJ in the .380 though, just due to those penetration concerns with a rapidly expanding light weight bullet not going deep enough. Still not enough to really make a firm recommendation, but that's my inclination.

This is my reason for my insane practice of alternating Defense rounds with FMJ. Because even the experts can't tell you which is best. It is also why 99% of the time I do carry a 9mm with Defense rounds vs a .380.

One thing I will address is the author's take on recoil. I'm sure we all know there is an actual recoil and a perceived recoil. Yes, a .380 will have less actual recoil, because it has less energy to impart to the shooter. There are a lot of factors that figure in to how that energy is perceived by the shooter, though. A heavier gun will accelerate slower, and will result in less felt recoil. Proper recoil springs will spread the application of the energy out over a longer period of time. High bore axis and lots of reciprocating mass will feel different than low bore axis and light reciprocating mass. Softer grips will be less punishing than harder grips. Etc. Etc. There are few choices on non-subcompact .380s. There are a bajillionity-seven choices in 9mm.

This is really interesting. My wife will not shoot any of my 9mms even the Hi-powers. She does not like them. Too much recoil. She loves her P238. Very low recoil. My friend's wife did not like the P238, but chose my CM9, preferring it's "recoil" which she thought was less.

While I believe a .380 is adequate and is a reasonable self defense caliber, given the plethora of 9mm and the incredible engineering and materials available today to make them both small and "recoil reducing" (so to speak), there's less and less reason to choose one over a 9mm as handgun design improves.

^^^between^^^

 

[ru44mag]

Don't confuse my input, as BBI's. Read between the lines.