Is this considered "intent" ??

[Hogwylde]

I know that if you have.....say an AR15 and you also have an M16 trigger group, hammer, disconnector, bolt carrier, etc, that the ATF can say since you have all the parts to make a full auto weapon, that you have the "intent" and you are in violation of the law.

What if you have your AR15 machined to accept the M16 trigger group and drill the hole for the disconnector pin, ect. Is that also considered "intent" even if you don't possess the M16 parts to do the conversion??

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'd say generally it depends on the prosecutor, BUUUT....

IANAL but I would say yes, "intent". What logical reason would you have an AR machined to accept a M16 trigger if you had no intent to use said trigger group? Can you demonstrate a reason to machine the lower to that spec for any other reason? If so you might have a case. If not, grab your ankles. LOL

 

[wsenefeld]

Having an M16 fire control group is NFA all by itself whether or not you own an AR.

 

[ShootnCut]

If you machine an AR 15 lower to accept the auto sear (open up receiver and drill hole) you have an unregistered machine gun period, even if you have no other parts. Just as a stripped lower receiver is considered a firearm, a stripped lower receiver that will accept an auto sear is considered a machine gun. So there would be no intent, it would be illegal possession of an unregistered automatic weapon. You may be OK with just the 16 carrier. I've read differing opinions on that so don't take that as gospel. (Some say they like the extra weight for the carbine gas system.) But do not put any 16 lower parts in any rifle.

 

[Clay]

Having an M16 fire control group is NFA all by itself whether or not you own an AR.

are you sure about this?

 

[rvb]

I know that if you have.....say an AR15 and you also have an M16 trigger group, hammer, disconnector, bolt carrier, etc, that the ATF can say since you have all the parts to make a full auto weapon, that you have the "intent" and you are in violation of the law.

What if you have your AR15 machined to accept the M16 trigger group and drill the hole for the disconnector pin, ect. Is that also considered "intent" even if you don't possess the M16 parts to do the conversion??

Having a full-auto receiver w.o the paperwork violates nfa. otherwise you could buy a un-registered FA receiver just w/o the small parts. doing the work you describe isn't "intent," it's actually making a contraband MG.

I've heard of "replica" M16's that just had a little indent milled where the auto-sear pin hole goes to make it look like a real M16 (didn't cut all the way through receiver) and the atf made them put the fake pin/hole in a slightly different location.

Having an M16 fire control group is NFA all by itself whether or not you own an AR.

I've not heard that before. having a FCG and no firearm to put it in is just parts. The FCG isn't registered (assuming we aren't talking about a DIAS). That said, having an auto FCG as well as ARs (none of which registered as an MG) I believe will most likely land you in trouble. Just like having a short barrel could be considered "intent" if you have ARs but none are sbr-registered or pistol lowers to use it on. But if you have no ARs and just a short barrel, there's no "intent."

You may be OK with just the 16 carrier. I've read differing opinions on that so don't take that as gospel. (Some say they like the extra weight for the carbine gas system.) But do not put any 16 lower parts in any rifle.

I don't see how the FA carrier could be a problem.... it's all DD, BCM, LMT, etc ship in their title1 guns these days. I know back in the day there were ATF responses that it shouldn't be done, but I think there are later letters saying the opposite. I don't sweat using FA carriers.

-rvb

 

[Clay]

I dont see how having a full auto FCG for an M16 is an issue, considering almost every AK kit I've ever purchased came with all the full auto parts included.

 

[rvb]

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-appendix-b.pdf

The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger,disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal ofthe disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the 5 M16 parts listed above will also shootautomatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.
...
.In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16, hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and boltcarriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts havebeen modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembledwith M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15​

Model SP1 configuration.

So it doesn't specifically address "intent" (which I think is way over-blown anyway), but perhaps that helps address why ARs are treated different than AKs? [I'm AK ignorant]

-rvb

 

[rvb]

from the NFA Handbook:

section 2.1.6, pg 14

The definition of machinegun also includes a combination of parts from which a machinegun can be
assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person. An example of a firearm
meeting this section of the definition is a semiautomatic AR15 rifle possessed with an M16 bolt carrier,
hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector. If the semiautomatic AR15 is assembled with the described
M16 parts and the rifle is capable of fully automatic fire, the weapon possessed in conjunction with the
M16 parts, whether assembled or not, is a machinegun as defined

-rvb

edit: link:
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8.pdf

 

[Clay]

So it doesn't specifically address "intent" (which I think is way over-blown anyway), but perhaps that helps address why ARs are treated different than AKs? [I'm AK ignorant]

correct me if Im wrong because I don't know ARs well enough, but if you have all of the FA M16 parts, will they fit into an AR? or do you have to do some machine work to make that happen??

To get all the FA parts into an AK you have to drill 2 holes in the receiver and machine a slot for the trip lever. I was under the impression you had to do a similar operation to get all the parts into an AR.

 

[rvb]

correct me if Im wrong because I don't know ARs well enough, but if you have all of the FA M16 parts, will they fit into an AR? or do you have to do some machine work to make that happen??

To get all the FA parts into an AK you have to drill 2 holes in the receiver and machine a slot for the trip lever. I was under the impression you had to do a similar operation to get all the parts into an AR.

Note the quote from my first link includes a list of parts needed to make the AR run FA.... that list doesn't include the autosear. The autosear is what requires the additional hole in the receiver (and material to be milled away in most receivers). I think the distinction is that the AK requires some receiver mill/drill work to make it run FA while the AR often can be made to run FA w/ just a portion of the FA FCG parts.

-rvb

 

[ShootnCut]

correct me if Im wrong because I don't know ARs well enough, but if you have all of the FA M16 parts, will they fit into an AR? or do you have to do some machine work to make that happen??

To get all the FA parts into an AK you have to drill 2 holes in the receiver and machine a slot for the trip lever. I was under the impression you had to do a similar operation to get all the parts into an AR.

Since I have a friend who had a legal converted AK and AR I've had the chance to look at them in detail. Like an AK all the parts will fit except for the auto sear. (trip lever for AK) The hole for the pin has to be drilled in each side of the receiver and the extra metal they left in there has to be removed to allow the auto sear to fit. It's the same width as the trigger and hammer so where it goes has to be the same size opening. But performing those two steps creates a machine gun by legal definition. I remember the good old days at the local gun show when a vendor had a table full of stripped Sendra M16 lowers for $350.00 each. Ah, to be able to go back to before 1986............

 

[ShootnCut]

Note the quote from my first link includes a list of parts needed to make the AR run FA.... that list doesn't include the autosear. The autosear is what requires the additional hole in the receiver (and material to be milled away in most receivers). I think the distinction is that the AK requires some receiver mill/drill work to make it run FA while the AR often can be made to run FA w/ just a portion of the FA FCG parts.

-rvb

The problem with the AR is if all the parts (except the auto sear) are installed and the selector if set to auto, the disconnector is disabled and allows the hammer to ride down when the bcg goes forward. Most of the time the round will not go off but it's possible and that qualifies for the "more than one shot per single pull of the trigger". Colt addressed this by notching the hammer and sloping the underside of the carrier so the hammer notch will catch the flange of the firing pin, stopping the gun dead in it's tracks.

 

[rvb]

The problem with the AR is ...

correct...
i was purposely trying to be a little vague...

The scary part to all this just about any semi-auto can fail in a way that creates a MG legally. And people have wound up in court over an out of tune disconnector causing doubles, etc.

-rvb

 

[ShootnCut]

correct...
i was purposely trying to be a little vague...

The scary part to all this just about any semi-auto can fail in a way that creates a MG legally. And people have wound up in court over an out of tune disconnector causing doubles, etc.


-rvb

I've seen this happen with an AR 180. The disconnector was slightly worn and if you slowly released the trigger after firing it would release the disconnector before the hammer caught causing it to double. And then we have that magical "more than one shot".......

 

[2tonic]

Not to cloud the issue here, but let's remember that the term is "constructive possession"; no intent involved or necessary. In practice, you can be prosecuted for this if you possess NFA items with no viably legal way to assemble them.
If you have 5 sub-16" uppers, and 1 registered lower, no problem.
If you have 5 sub-16" uppers, and no lowers, still no problem.
If you have any sub-16" uppers, a completed non-registered lower, and no legal (16"+) upper to put on it, you are technically guilty of constructive possession.
Will BATF come knock down your door? For this alone? Not likely, unless you buy big or talk big.

Clay

I dont see how having a full auto FCG for an M16 is an issue, considering almost every AK kit I've ever purchased came with all the full auto parts included.​

A select fire FCG (full auto or burst fire) should only be a problem if you also own an unregistered lower that will accept it, or any lowers without legal FCG's currently in them. A DIAS, Lightning Link, etc. are NFA items just like a suppressor. Must be registered to own them regardless of whether you own a host firearm or not.

 

[ryknoll3]

Having an M16 fire control group is NFA all by itself whether or not you own an AR.

Definitely not true. M16 parts are perfectly legal to own, so long as you don't own the rifle to put them in.

 

[madeuce50]

When you drill the hole with out the paperwork even if you are 07 /FFL/ sot you are in violation, no if's, ands or buts about it. The parts possession can be construed either way depending how bad they want to prosecute. The best thing is just don't do it. There really is no good that can come out.

 

[menzzer37]

When you drill the hole with out the paperwork even if you are 07 /FFL/ sot you are in violation, no if's, ands or buts about it. The parts possession can be construed either way depending how bad they want to prosecute. The best thing is just don't do it. There really is no good that can come out.

False because as an SOT/FFL, I can drill the sear hole then file paperwork when it's complete. I don't need any approval to construct a full auto lower. I have to submit a Form 2 declaring manufacture. I do not need approval (post sample obviously).

 

[madeuce50]

False because as an SOT/FFL, I can drill the sear hole then file paperwork when it's complete. I don't need any approval to construct a full auto lower. I have to submit a Form 2 declaring manufacture. I do not need approval (post sample obviously).

I certainly hope you have an 07 also. SOT let's you have pre and post guns along with the benefits but you can't manufacture with out a 07