OC at 4-H Fair. -1 Marshall County Reserve Officer

[Hoosierdood]

My family and I went to the Marshall County 4-H fair tonight, and I was OC as usual. I was walking around the fairgrounds with my family, looking at the exhibits, and animals. We even ate some fair food. As we were walking through the swine barn, I noticed an officer enter to the rear of the building. I also noticed him make his way toward me and my family as we were walking through the barn. As we were about to leave, the officer approached me and the conversation is as follows:

LEO: Sir, may I speak to you over here for a minute?
ME: OK
LEO: Are with an agency?
ME: No sir, I am not.
LEO: Do you have any identification on you?
ME: Yes I do.
LEO: Get it out please.
*NOTE - I did not make any movements until I was instructed to do so.
LEO: (takes ID) What are you doing?
ME: Pardon?
LEO: Why are you walking around with a gun?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: Because you can’t carry what?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: I’m getting calls from all over this fairgrounds about you. People are scared. Do you know what that is called?
ME: (Silent stare)
LEO: That’s called INTIMIDATION.
ME: No sir, that’s called me exercising my rights.
LEO: Get out your permit, because I know you have one.
ME: (hands over LICENSE)
LEO: You should know better than walk around here with a concealed carry permit, and your gun isn’t even concealed.
ME: Actually, sir it is a License to Carry, and it says nothing about carrying concealed.
LEO: You are supposed to have it concealed. Carrying like that is just pure stupidity.
ME: Show me where it says on my license anything about concealed…
LEO: Well people are getting upset. You know I can take this away from you? (holds up license)
ME: NOW who’s the one intimidating???
LEO: Well, I can have your permit taken away from you.
ME: For what exactly?
LEO: For carrying improperly.
ME: I’m not carrying improperly. I am well within my rights whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
LEO: Do you know what this place is?
ME: It’s the fairgrounds.
LEO: Is this private property or not?
ME: Well that depends.
LEO: Just answer the question. Is this private property or public? It’s a YES or NO question.
ME: Well, It is run by the Fair Board. Is the Fair Board a political subdivision?
LEO: You’re not going to answer the question are you?
ME: If the fair board is a political subdivision and gets its funding from public monies, then it is not private property.
LEO: No, this is private property. Do you know why that’s not allowed?
ME: I know that private property owners can set their own rules. And they can ask anyone to leave for any reason they see fit.
LEO: Well nobody wants guns here.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: It’s just pure stupidity to be walking around like that.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: Stay here for a minute.
*He goes about 30 feet away, and calls in my license. He then comes back.
LEO: You know this is private property right?
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: (blank stare)
ME: Are you asking me to leave?
LEO: I’m asking you to leave.
ME: OK. Kids, lets go.
LEO: We have this same problem at the Blueberry Festival. People don’t know that it’s private property.
ME: Officer, do you have a card?
LEO: NO
ME: What is your name?
LEO: Officer Heckman.
ME: You mean Reserve Sheriffs Deputy Heckman. Can I borrow your pen to write that down?
LEO: No you can’t.
*He then follows us to our car, as my 5 year old is crying his eyes out, and says to me “Daddy, why did that cop make us leave?” I replied loud enough that the officer could hear “Because he is an elitist and thinks that only cops should carry guns.”

My kids are devastated, I am madder than a hornet, and my wife can’t believe what she just witnessed. I plan on calling the Marshall County Sheriffs Dept. to file a formal complaint. Before that time, I need to investigate the Fair Board and find out if they are in fact a political subdivision. If they are in fact a political subdivision, then I plan on informing the Sheriffs Dept. that I have the legal right to sue. We will see what happens…

 

[HICKMAN]

enforcer of the law that doesn't know the law...

 

[miguel]

Go get 'em!

 

[BBSparkle]

More, yes, mooooooaaarrr.

 

[Plinkuh]

Get 'em tiger! That's pure BULL

 

[esrice]

Thanks for the dialog! That's very helpful for getting a sense of the overall scene.

This part was my favorite though.

ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: Stay here for a minute.

 

[J_Wales]

My family and I went to the Marshall County 4-H fair tonight, and I was OC as usual. I was walking around the fairgrounds with my family, looking at the exhibits, and animals. We even ate some fair food. As we were walking through the swine barn, I noticed an officer enter to the rear of the building. I also noticed him make his way toward me and my family as we were walking through the barn. As we were about to leave, the officer approached me and the conversation is as follows:

LEO: Sir, may I speak to you over here for a minute?
ME: OK
LEO: Are with an agency?
ME: No sir, I am not.
LEO: Do you have any identification on you?
ME: Yes I do.
LEO: Get it out please.
*NOTE - I did not make any movements until I was instructed to do so.
LEO: (takes ID) What are you doing?
ME: Pardon?
LEO: Why are you walking around with a gun?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: Because you can’t carry what?
ME: Because I can’t carry a cop on my back.
LEO: I’m getting calls from all over this fairgrounds about you. People are scared. Do you know what that is called?
ME: (Silent stare)
LEO: That’s called INTIMIDATION.
ME: No sir, that’s called me exercising my rights.
LEO: Get out your permit, because I know you have one.
ME: (hands over LICENSE)
LEO: You should know better than walk around here with a concealed carry permit, and your gun isn’t even concealed.
ME: Actually, sir it is a License to Carry, and it says nothing about carrying concealed.
LEO: You are supposed to have it concealed. Carrying like that is just pure stupidity.
ME: Show me where it says on my license anything about concealed…
LEO: Well people are getting upset. You know I can take this away from you? (holds up license)
ME: NOW who’s the one intimidating???
LEO: Well, I can have your permit taken away from you.
ME: For what exactly?
LEO: For carrying improperly.
ME: I’m not carrying improperly. I am well within my rights whether you or anyone else likes it or not.
LEO: Do you know what this place is?
ME: It’s the fairgrounds.
LEO: Is this private property or not?
ME: Well that depends.
LEO: Just answer the question. Is this private property or public? It’s a YES or NO question.
ME: Well, It is run by the Fair Board. Is the Fair Board a political subdivision?
LEO: You’re not going to answer the question are you?
ME: If the fair board is a political subdivision and gets its funding from public monies, then it is not private property.
LEO: No, this is private property. Do you know why that’s not allowed?
ME: I know that private property owners can set their own rules. And they can ask anyone to leave for any reason they see fit.
LEO: Well nobody wants guns here.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: It’s just pure stupidity to be walking around like that.
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: Stay here for a minute.
*He goes about 30 feet away, and calls in my license. He then comes back.
LEO: You know this is private property right?
ME: Ask me to leave and I will gladly leave.
LEO: (blank stare)
ME: Are you asking me to leave?
LEO: I’m asking you to leave.
ME: OK. Kids, lets go.
LEO: We have this same problem at the Blueberry Festival. People don’t know that it’s private property.
ME: Officer, do you have a card?
LEO: NO
ME: What is your name?
LEO: Officer Heckman.
ME: You mean Reserve Sheriffs Deputy Heckman. Can I borrow your pen to write that down?
LEO: No you can’t.
*He then follows us to our car, as my 5 year old is crying his eyes out, and says to me “Daddy, why did that cop make us leave?” I replied loud enough that the officer could hear “Because he is an elitist and thinks that only cops should carry guns.”

My kids are devastated, I am madder than a hornet, and my wife can’t believe what she just witnessed. I plan on calling the Marshall County Sheriffs Dept. to file a formal complaint. Before that time, I need to investigate the Fair Board and find out if they are in fact a political subdivision. If they are in fact a political subdivision, then I plan on informing the Sheriffs Dept. that I have the legal right to sue. We will see what happens…

Excellent post. Thanks for sharing!

It sounds like other than being in the proper exhibit building, he didn't get much of anything right.

Please keep us posted on how it goes.

 

[shooter1054]

You were at a fair. Of course you were scaring the sheep

 

[SmileDocHill]

If it turns out to be private property doesn't it have to be the property owner that says he has to leave?
Speaking into what I consider right vs wrong (since I really don't know what the law says on it...)
Other visitors complaining to law enforcement should have to result in LEO asking the owner what his/her wishes are. If it is private property I don't think that is right (whether legal or not) if the guests and LEO can decide to kick out other guests without the support of the owner.
If that happens to be the case legally, I would want to research whether LEO had this approval prior to their actions (not just that the property owner supported it after the fact).

 

[ATM]

There is still work to be done. Good job dealing with the fail.

 

[LawDog76]

If it turns out to be private property doesn't it have to be the property owner that says he has to leave?
Speaking into what I consider right vs wrong (since I really don't know what the law says on it...)
Other visitors complaining to law enforcement should have to result in LEO asking the owner what his/her wishes are. If it is private property I don't think that is right (whether legal or not) if the guests and LEO can decide to kick out other guests without the support of the owner.
If that happens to be the case legally, I would want to research whether LEO had this approval prior to their actions (not just that the property owner supported it after the fact).

The owners or a AUTHORIZED Representative, or Security (which the Sheriff's Office was providing) can ask you to leave. The Rep or Security can only ask you to leave because of the firearm IF the owners have already established they don't want the firearms there. The Rep or Security can't ask you to leave because they have a personal problem with you carrying.

 

[Big Hank]

Bartholomew County 4H Fair website says no firearms... I haven't been to the fair in 8 years.

It sounds like you handled yourself quite well. +1 to you.

 

[SmileDocHill]

The owners or a AUTHORIZED Representative, or Security (which the Sheriff's Office was providing) can ask you to leave. The Rep or Security can only ask you to leave because of the firearm IF the owners have already established they don't want the firearms there. The Rep or Security can't ask you to leave because they have a personal problem with you carrying.

That makes perfect sense. Thanks for that.

 

[LawDog76]

To the OP, personally I'd file a complaint on the officer's behavior. Don't expect them to terminate him or anything along those lines but a reprimand for Professional Misconduct is in order if it played out as you stated.

 

[jesse485]

I suppose he was OCing while he was reprimanding you, yes?

 

[eldirector]

Marshall Co. does not have property tax/owner records online. The other fairgrounds I have researched have ALL been owned by the county government. As such, the COUNTY cannot have any law/rule/policy on this. However, I have not been able to determine if the 4H program or Purdue Extension has leased the property from the county. If so, THEY may have a rule on this.

If the Purdue Extension has a lease and a rule, then this becomes a simple trespass issue. If they do NOT have a lease or a rule, then your "officer" has a real problem, and may have just stepped into a bug pile of 35-47-11.1-5.

That's on top of the fact that he obviously does not understand Indiana firearm laws.

Keep us updated!

 

[goinggreyfast]

 

[eldirector]

More research:

Looks like Hamilton Co. and LaPort Co. owns the properties outright. The Extension simply uses the space (no lease).

Links:
New home for Purdue Extension moves forward - South Bend Tribune
http://www.hamiltoncofairgrounds.com/pdf/sampleContract.pdf (<-rental checks payable to the County treasurer).

I suspect this is the same agreement across the board. Any Purdue Extension and/or 4H folks on INGO? Want to find out how the County Fairground, Extension, and Fair Board arrangement works?

I did find this, so might be worth following
from:
http://www.co.marshall.in.us/files/council/minutes/2010/December 13.pdf

4-H Fair Board: Mr. Hassel reported that Richard Markley, the Council’s appointment to the fair board, has been elected president of the board, and cannot vote on the various issues. Therefore, it is necessary to appoint another representative to the board.
Fred Lintner moved, seconded by Rex Gilliland, to appoint Don Morrison to the Marshall County 4-H Fair Board. Motion carried 7-0.

Is the Fair Board part of the Purdue Extension or the County?

 

[Wwwildthing]

You walked all over the grounds, did you see any signs posted?

What about their website (if they have one), is firearms mentioned there?

If not, then...

Marshall Co. does not have property tax/owner records online. The other fairgrounds I have researched have ALL been owned by the county government. As such, the COUNTY cannot have any law/rule/policy on this. However, I have not been able to determine if the 4H program or Purdue Extension has leased the property from the county. If so, THEY may have a rule on this.

If the Purdue Extension has a lease and a rule, then this becomes a simple trespass issue. If they do NOT have a lease or a rule, then your "officer" has a real problem, and may have just stepped into a bug pile of 35-47-11.1-5.

That's on top of the fact that he obviously does not understand Indiana firearm laws.

Keep us updated!

 

[japartridge]

That's Marshall county for ya... I grew up there, couldn't get out fast enough! My father carried for years... never had many problems, of course we knew and were friendly with all the officers (long story for another thread )

The actually officers and sheriff's deputies were never that bad... usually they would just come over and shoot the **** with you for a moment ask to see your license (to make the sheeple happy) and inform the sheeple that had the problem that you were doing nothing wrong...

Sounds like the reserve deputy you had to deal with is just a complete jack-leg!