You can have your gun, but not your ammo

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  • JoshuaW

    Master
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    2   0   0
    Jun 18, 2010
    2,266
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    South Bend, IN
    On Thursday June 23, about 740 AM I was involved in a head-on collision while traveling south towards Plymouth on Michigan street, about a mile or two outside of town. If anyone happened to see this accident, or knows someone that did, please email me. Anyways, onward with the story.

    In the aftermath, the first officer came to see if I was alright. I answered his questions, then informed him that my pistol was somewhere on the floor of my car, and that I have a license in my wallet which I would gladly show him when I was freed from the car. He said that was fine. When he returned a few minutes later, I had found the pistol on my floor and handed it to him, so I wouldnt have to keep track of it, since I wasnt sure whether I would be headed to the hospital.

    After being freed from the car, treated (well, refusing treatment) I was talking to the officer about what happened, and to retrieve my pistol. He brought the pistol back, and told me it was unloaded because of my condition. I asked if he put the ammo in a bag or something, and he replied that he did. I asked where it was, and he stated it was in his patrol car. I asked for it, and replied that I was misunderstanding, and that it was unloaded for my protection, I would not be receiving my ammo, "for my own safety". I could pick it up at the Marshal County Sheriff department tomorrow. He explicitly said tomorrow, as if that made some sort of difference. He also never gave me a receipt or asked if that was fine with me. In my eyes, he illegally confiscated 16 rounds.

    Supposedly I replied something like "That is just dumb" and then walked off. I was in front of my boss, and that is what she was telling everyone. I dont really remember it, but then again, I had a concussion, which may have been why I didnt argue with the officer to much.

    I just found this situation completely retarded. I later retrieved the extra mag from my car and loaded up, but I still havent gotten my ammo back. Huge :noway: for the Marshal County Sheriff department, and for Patrolman Joe Giordano.
     

    THard6

    Master
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    28   0   1
    Apr 1, 2010
    1,779
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    Greenwood
    glad to see that you're alright. and i am with you on this one.. i don't understand them taking your amo unless they were worried you're kill the operator of the other vehicle. but if you were gonna do it you probably would;ve already!! lol but i would question it. they could of given it to your passanger? i'm still not clear why they did it. i'd look into it
     

    Hoosierdood

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    Nov 2, 2010
    5,427
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    North of you
    I came up on the accident as they were loading the pickup truck up on the tow truck. Looked like a pretty nasty wreck. I agree, it was pretty dumb that they confiscated your ammo. I guess from their perspective, you were obviously distraught and possibly had a concussion, and that's why they kept it. I'm not saying it is right, just stating that's probably what the officer was thinking. Too bad you couldnt have dealt with the short bald guy with the white mustache (don't know his name), because he is pretty level headed, and probably would have given your ammo back. I would file a formal complaint with the sheriff's dept. It might not accomplish anything, but at least you should go on record.

    By the way, how did the accident happen? Looked like the truck and trailer lost control and crossed the line? Glad you're ok.
     

    rlspach

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    Nov 9, 2008
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    Well I suppose someone with a concussion might be a little more likely to overlook one of the rules. If he can see that you've hit your head and it turns out you did have a concussion, and he can't possible determine whether you've actually scrambled your brains or not, it seems like he erred on the side of caution. By your own admission you can't remember part of the encounter likely due to your concussion. Probably not a good state to be loading a firearm.

    I'm not seeing how this isn't a reasonable judgment call.
     

    hoosierdoc

    Freed prisoner
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    8   0   0
    Apr 27, 2011
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    Galt's Gulch
    Police are making medical diagnoses? Sounds like if you're too mentally disturbed to have ammo, you shouldn't have a gun either. Goofy thing for sure.

    Sorry about the wreck and the hospital visit that was perhaps not needed. Prolonged extrications make us worry though. Golden hour for trauma and all.
     

    dice dealer

    Master
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    0   0   0
    Dec 8, 2008
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    Harrison county
    Well I suppose someone with a concussion might be a little more likely to overlook one of the rules. If he can see that you've hit your head and it turns out you did have a concussion, and he can't possible determine whether you've actually scrambled your brains or not, it seems like he erred on the side of caution. By your own admission you can't remember part of the encounter likely due to your concussion. Probably not a good state to be loading a firearm.

    I'm not seeing how this isn't a reasonable judgment call.



    ^^^THIS^^^


    If the $2 worth of ammo is that important go pick it up ...
     

    JoshuaW

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    2   0   0
    Jun 18, 2010
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    South Bend, IN
    Well I suppose someone with a concussion might be a little more likely to overlook one of the rules. If he can see that you've hit your head and it turns out you did have a concussion, and he can't possible determine whether you've actually scrambled your brains or not, it seems like he erred on the side of caution. By your own admission you can't remember part of the encounter likely due to your concussion. Probably not a good state to be loading a firearm.

    I'm not seeing how this isn't a reasonable judgment call.

    Not giving a receipt is unreasonable, and at the time, they did not know I had a concussion. Everything checked out, and the EMTs seemed to think everything was okay. Later I went to the hospital on my own (have you seen the EMT bills?) and the doctor was pretty frustrated that I didnt come in earlier, because he said I pretty obviously had a concussion.


    I came up on the accident as they were loading the pickup truck up on the tow truck. Looked like a pretty nasty wreck. I agree, it was pretty dumb that they confiscated your ammo. I guess from their perspective, you were obviously distraught and possibly had a concussion, and that's why they kept it. I'm not saying it is right, just stating that's probably what the officer was thinking. Too bad you couldnt have dealt with the short bald guy with the white mustache (don't know his name), because he is pretty level headed, and probably would have given your ammo back. I would file a formal complaint with the sheriff's dept. It might not accomplish anything, but at least you should go on record.

    By the way, how did the accident happen? Looked like the truck and trailer lost control and crossed the line? Glad you're ok.

    The truck did not. I fell asleep at the wheel and drifted into the oncoming lane. If you saw my car at all, I am sure you would agree that it is nothing short of a miracle that I walked away. I had the cruise control set at 55mph, and I am sure the truck was doing about the same.
     

    LEaSH

    Grandmaster
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    43   0   0
    Aug 10, 2009
    5,819
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    Indianapolis
    True. But what you call a judgment call is a slippery slope.

    Maybe some judgment calls are official/unofficial policy but that doesn't make it legal.

    If some overreaching officer wants to play parent to a law abiding citizen, yeah that's a problem.
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
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    Feb 18, 2010
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    Valley Forge, PA
    I don't see where the officer was qualified to diagnose the OP as unfit to have ammunition. If medical personnel deemed him unfit, then and only then should the LEO have confiscated the ammunition. I'd say, OP, that your mistake was handing your firearm to the police officer for "safekeeping".
     

    Hoosierdood

    Grandmaster
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    Nov 2, 2010
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    Well I suppose someone with a concussion might be a little more likely to overlook one of the rules. If he can see that you've hit your head and it turns out you did have a concussion, and he can't possible determine whether you've actually scrambled your brains or not, it seems like he erred on the side of caution. By your own admission you can't remember part of the encounter likely due to your concussion. Probably not a good state to be loading a firearm.

    I'm not seeing how this isn't a reasonable judgment call.


    I have to disagree here. The OP wasn't doing anything illegal. Do officers have the discretion to refuse ammo based on the fact that you haven't had enough training? How about if you don't have a proper holster? I would say that even if the OP was intoxicated but not driving the officer still did not have a right to refuse returning the ammo.

    LEO's are given the task of enforcing the law. Please tell me what law the OP was violating that would have justified the officer confiscating his property. If the OP really was a threat to his or anyone else's safety, why didn't the LEO confiscate the whole weapon? :dunno:
     

    ElsiePeaRN

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    0   0   0
    Jan 18, 2011
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    Eastern Indiana
    I dont really remember it, but then again, I had a concussion, which may have been why I didnt argue with the officer to much.

    I just found this situation completely retarded. I later retrieved the extra mag from my car and loaded up, but I still havent gotten my ammo back. Huge :noway: for the Marshal County Sheriff department, and for Patrolman Joe Giordano.

    I'm happy you weren't hurt worse.

    But......, not to be nitpicky, but at the time, neither you nor the police officer knew you "had a concussion" only that you had some sort of head injury. People with head injuries who refuse medical treatment are demonstrating questionable judgment. Head injury symptoms can worsen suddenly and make people confused, disoriented, agitated and combative.

    Huge :yesway: to the Marshall County Sherriff department, and for Patrolman Joe Giordano who was showing far better judgment in the situation than you were, IMO.
     

    Amattern

    Expert
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    66   2   0
    Jan 4, 2011
    1,290
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    Terre Haute, IN
    I'm happy you weren't hurt worse.

    But......, not to be nitpicky, but at the time, neither you nor the police officer knew you "had a concussion" only that you had some sort of head injury. People with head injuries who refuse medical treatment are demonstrating questionable judgment. Head injury symptoms can worsen suddenly and make people confused, disoriented, agitated and combative.

    Huge :yesway: to the Marshall County Sherriff department, and for Patrolman Joe Giordano who was showing far better judgment in the situation than you were, IMO.

    +1
     

    Sylvain

    Grandmaster
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    1   0   0
    Nov 30, 2010
    77,313
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    Normandy
    I'm happy you weren't hurt worse.

    But......, not to be nitpicky, but at the time, neither you nor the police officer knew you "had a concussion" only that you had some sort of head injury. People with head injuries who refuse medical treatment are demonstrating questionable judgment. Head injury symptoms can worsen suddenly and make people confused, disoriented, agitated and combative.

    Huge :yesway: to the Marshall County Sherriff department, and for Patrolman Joe Giordano who was showing far better judgment in the situation than you were, IMO.

    I agree with that. :yesway:
    Maybe what the officer did wasnt legal and I can understand how you can be pissed off about it but im sure he did that with your safety in mind.
    Using a loaded gun after a head injury is not the safest thing to do and im sure the officer wanted you to pick the ammo only the next day to make sure your head was back to normal and not just to trouble you.

    If I have been there as your friend im sure I would have made sure that you were ok before I let you handle your loaded gun or drive by yourself just like that officer did.

    Im glad you are ok.You also should be glad that you got your gun back without any problem and that you can just get your ammo back at the local sheriff office now.
    It's not like the officer did that during a regular traffic stop, just remove your ammo after he took your gun for "officer's safety" to **** you off.
    In this case he did that for your safety and I think he deserves a :yesway: IMO.
     

    Hoosierdood

    Grandmaster
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    8   0   0
    Nov 2, 2010
    5,427
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    North of you
    The OP said he "refused treatment" which suggests that medical personnel were not the ones making the call on how "fit" he was. Someone with a head injury and questionable judgment was.

    I'm really not trying to be a jerk, but I haven't read anywhere in the IC that gun owners cannot legally carry if they have poor judgement. :dunno: There is a thread going on right now about carrying in a bar, and it has been well established that you can carry in a bar, while drinking, and even while intoxicated. It is not the best judgement, but not illegal. Should LEO's patrol the bars and confiscate ammo from everyone exercising poor judgement there?

    I agree with that. :yesway:
    Maybe what the officer did wasnt legal and I can understand how you can be pissed off about it but im sure he did that with your safety in mind.
    Using a loaded gun after a head injury is not the safest thing to do and im sure the officer wanted you to pick the ammo only the next day to make sure your head was back to normal and not just to trouble you.

    If I have been there as your friend im sure I would have made sure that you were ok before I let you handle your loaded gun or drive by yourself just like that officer did.

    Im glad you are ok.You also should be glad that you got your gun back without any problem and that you can just get your ammo back at the local sheriff office now.
    It's not like the officer did that during a regular traffic stop, just remove your ammo after he took your gun for "officer's safety" to **** you off.
    In this case he did that for your safety and I think he deserves a :yesway: IMO.

    So you are saying that it is ok for a LEO to violate your rights if he really had your safety in mind while violating those rights? If that is the case LEO's should be pulling little old ladies over and confiscating their keys, because they pose a threat to themselves and others while driving their Lincoln Town Car's down the road. After all, they would be doing it with their safety in mind.

    I have to disagree here. The OP wasn't doing anything illegal. Do officers have the discretion to refuse ammo based on the fact that you haven't had enough training? How about if you don't have a proper holster? I would say that even if the OP was intoxicated but not driving the officer still did not have a right to refuse returning the ammo.

    LEO's are given the task of enforcing the law. Please tell me what law the OP was violating that would have justified the officer confiscating his property. If the OP really was a threat to his or anyone else's safety, why didn't the LEO confiscate the whole weapon? :dunno:

    Still haven't seen anyone answer my previous question.
     

    Muddy_Ford

    Sharpshooter
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    May 8, 2009
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    Hartford City
    ^^^THIS^^^


    If the $2 worth of ammo is that important go pick it up ...


    Sorry, but not everyone carries a .22 like you do(at least judging by the $$ you put on the ammo). My carry ammo for my 9mm would cost almost $20 dollars for 16 rnds. Sorry but making up rules that suit the officer at the time is not allowed nor should it be tolerated. The officer in question gets an even bigger :noway: from me for not even issuing a receipt.
     

    ralphb72

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    4   0   0
    Oct 11, 2008
    772
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    Greens Fork, IN
    Thank God that you are still alive. +1 for having the extra mag. I usually carry an extra mag already loaded with me too and at least a full box of ammo in the glove box.
     

    PatriotPride

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    Feb 18, 2010
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    Valley Forge, PA
    The OP said he "refused treatment" which suggests that medical personnel were not the ones making the call on how "fit" he was. Someone with a head injury and questionable judgment was.

    I take it you've not been in a serious vehicle accident lately. :rolleyes: I was involved in a high-speed collision with a semi just a few months ago. Ripped the front of my car off, in fact---cracked 2 ribs, gave me such severe whiplash that I couldn't move my head for a week. I initially refused medical treatment, but against my better judgement I allowed the EMS personnel to take me to the hospital where I was then released.

    So to you, because the OP was involved in a collision, the OP automatically had "questionable judgement" and the officer was justified in confiscating his ammunition without due cause and without so much as an issuance of a receipt? Give me a break. :n00b: People need to shrug off the nanny-state mentality.
     

    PatriotPride

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    Feb 18, 2010
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    Valley Forge, PA
    Sorry, but not everyone carries a .22 like you do(at least judging by the $$ you put on the ammo). My carry ammo for my 9mm would cost almost $20 dollars for 16 rnds. Sorry but making up rules that suit the officer at the time is not allowed nor should it be tolerated. The officer in question gets an even bigger :noway: from me for not even issuing a receipt.

    +1 :yesway:
     
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