Why is no one talking about the 460S&W Mag in a rifle for deer?

[Skip]

The changes in the DNR rules for deer hunting carbines has made some people go off the reservation looking for a new cartridge. Hey, I am one of them. I picked the .358/25 WSSM. My platform is in the Encore and the barrel is from MGM (Match Grade Machine) and was purchased semi-locally at Just Hunt in Wabash.

Okay, all of that out of the way, now that the case length has been lengthened to 1.8", why are we overlooking the obvious here?

The ammo is readily available. Dies, bullets, powder, all of that, readily available. I suppose it can be downloaded for a younger or small female shooter too. Even cast bullets, for those of us that like casting projectiles, are common and varied, so.................What am I missing?

I know that recoil is a downer. I shot a friend's Encore with a 15" barrel and it was a handful, no doubt about that BUT, the Leverution 225gr bullet left that tube @ 2731fps. Listen, out of a 18" to 20" barrel, you are going to get a lot more than that! So, I ask again, What am I missing?

Maybe what I need to do is sell the .358/25 WSSM, get a 460S&W Mag barrel (standard now) and work it out.

Oh, I know that it isn't going to be as flat of shooting and 400 yard shots aren't going to happen, maybe, but still.............What am I missing?
(Personally, if you have to take 400 yard shots, you might just want to check out your hunting skills first! )

Maybe I need to run the ballistics on this once.

It sure would make it nice for folks that are trying to get into the carbine with minimal costs. It would cut out a bunch of "boutique" wild caters maybe.

At any rate, What am I missing? Let's talk about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Slow Hand]

I'm happy they are allowing more calibers Nd more room for experimentation but I'm just pretty happy with my old .357 Rossi levergun! I'm going to have a peep sight on it this year so I should be able to eeven more accurate with it but it shoots pretty good for me. A cast 195 gr soft point does pretty well at 1700 fps. Where I hunt, you can barely see 75 yards so a flat shooting, 400 yard rifle has little benefit for me. I'd still like to get one of the .358's to play with some day but I'm perfectly happy with the .308 for a fun range toy. I do plan on experimenting with my .35 Remington this year but that's more about getting a cool old rifle back in the woods than more range and power.

Doug K

 

[Broom_jm]

A good friend of mine has a gorgeous Ruger #1 in 460S&W and another buddy has an Encore with a 460 Katahdin barrel on it. They are both getting the kind of velocity you mentioned from their full length barrels, so don't expect to see a big jump when going from the 15" pistol length. In other words, with a cartridge/bore like this, another 25% of barrel length might equal 10% more velocity.

Still, it's an awesome, powerhouse of a round! To my mind, the 460S&W rifle barrels are like a rifled slug barrel, but with better accuracy and increased range. In fact, both shoot the same bullet, since many slug loads are just a 45 caliber projectile in a sabot. If you don't mind the recoil of a slug gun, but want better overall performance, the 460S&W is an obvious choice.

I shot my buddy's at his range in southern Indiana. He has a target at a measured 287 yards. With his quality handloads, all he had to do was sight in 2" high at 100 yards and then use the extra crosshairs in his Burris scope to shoot an acceptable group at nearly 300! Having multiple aiming points in the scope made this possible w/o the problem of an excessive mid-point rise. There is no question the bullet still has more than enough energy, at long range.

The problem you just can't gloss over, is the recoil. I was shooting it side-by-side with my 270 Winchester and the 460 was far worse. The question becomes: What level of performance do you want, at what range, and how much recoil are you willing to tolerate in order to get there? The 460S&W, especially in a fairly light Encore barrel, is going to kick like a ticked-off mule. My friend down in TX with that set up had his ported, so instead of recoil, he has vicious muzzle blast to contend with. He hunts with a set of Walker's game muffs on.

So, you gotta pick yer poison. I don't want the recoil of a slug gun or 150gr ML charge. I don't want the recoil of a 350Rem Mag or 35 Whelen. I want the 300 yard range of a classic, small-bore rifle, but since the smallest diameter we can choose is .357", that's not going to happen without some kick at the other end. For me, I've chosen to limit shot distance instead of trying to up the ante, in terms of power. I would be perfectly happy with a 357 Herrett, 35 Remington-short, 358 Winchester-short or one of several others.

If you think about it, the net difference is measured in how many additional yards you can shoot and kill a deer. You have to ask yourself if 200 yards is enough, or do you need 225, 250, 300? For those who grew up hunting Indiana, the notion of shooting confidently at 200 yards is still pretty cool!

In the places I hunt, I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen deer over 150 yards, that I couldn't set up to hunt closer. That's why I would be just fine with a 200 yard 35 Remington that kicks even LESS than my 270, instead of a big ol' 45 caliber behemoth lobbing punkins at 250 or more! YMMV

(Truth be told, I'm stirring the pot a little, here. I'd be just fine with a 460S&W, if I already had one. For my wife and/or daughter, something with less kick is definitely indicated! )

 

[Skip]

It isn't like I haven't been there done that with the recoil thing either. I had a 500S&W Mag in a H&R and I have NEVER had something that kicked me so hard in all of my life!

Talk about whomp! WOWSERS!

When I first bought it, all I had was factory Leverution loads. I had no additional buttpad on it and it really hurt! I'm a big guy, 6' 2" and over 250lbs and listen, I have shot a lot, nothing I have ever shot before even came close. I had to borrow my wife's coat and fold that up like a shooting jacket pad just to get through "unloading" that brass so I could reload it.

Once I got that stuff so I could reload it, I had some high velocity ammo with lower kick. The powder used in the factory ammo seems to take advantage of a 12" or less barrel, with the longer barrel, I could use a slower powder and make some enjoyable shooting loads. I even played around with some "accelorator" type loads using 44Mag bullets. Much more fun to shoot long sessions with.

Far right: 500S&W Mag with a 325gr Speer Gold Dot with a heathy heapin' helpin' charge of Lil' Gun. In the middle, 44Mag with a 250gr Keith, on the left, 357Mag( I think )

p.s. As for greater velocities with longer barrels, with the right powders, I usually get 30fps per extra inch of barrel length. So, since the difference between the two would be about 5", depending, a 150fps increase would be a good thing with that heavy bullet. Better than what you get from another 200 yard gun, my Encore Muzzle Loader with a Hornady FTX in it.

Just for discussion though.

 

[rimfire_crazed]

Cost benefit analysis. It just hasn't worked out in favor for me.

If I had a pile of money to throw around, i'd get an encore barrel, but the amount of money i'd need to spend on a sturdy optic and the cost of feeding the beast sorta cancels out any perceived benefit the .460 brings at the ranges I can hunt.

As has been previously stated, the 460 does not develop a whole lot more velocity when shot out of a carbine length barrel - there's just not enough powder in the cartridge. It's possible that with some slower than specified powders, it may be possible to develop more muzzle velocity, but that would take some serious load development time and I don't know anyone who has the cash or the shoulder to try and wring another 200 fps out of the cartridge.

You know it's December on INGO when all the talk goes from actual shooting to "what if's" and "if i could's" and "has anyone done" ...

 

[fireball168]

I don't know anyone who has the cash or the shoulder to try and wring another 200 fps out of the cartridge.

I got asked to do this several months ago, the barrel is sitting here and the starting loads are ready to go.

A couple of guys were pretty hot on doing testing with the Cor-Bon factory loads, etc - they are sitting here too.

Just need to get in the mood to get it done.

You know it's December on INGO when all the talk goes from actual shooting to "what if's" and "if i could's" and "has anyone done" ...

AMEN

 

[Skip]

While it is December, there are a few of us that are still visiting the range. Just yesterday I got the wife and my Encore Muzzle Loaders sighted in with their new glass, Nikon Omegas. Shot up a whole can of Blackhorn 209 and going back for another one today!

Maybe all I need to do is have that afield this coming deer season. Time will tell. One hole 100 yard groups from most 357 caliber projectiles, are sufficient accuracy to take anything that walks here in Indiana. Maybe I'll just forget about this though.................NOT! I think Schanz in Otsego, Michigan has a large on the shelf stock of Encore barrels. Last time I was there, they had a 460S&W Mag. Might just have to take a run up there!

 

[dave29]

I have an Encore ProHunter in .460 with the 20" barrel. It is a kicker, but I don't use it as a range toy, I sight it in, and then when/if you take a shot while hunting, you won't even notice the recoil.

That being said, I am in the market for one of the 1.8" rifles. Not a WSSM either. I like the looks of these .358 shorts that people are coming out with. A shortened .358 case with the shoulder bumped back. I don't think a round like that will kick too horribly bad. I have seen one already called the .358 Hoosier, I'm in no hurry and I'm waiting to see if anyone else comes out with something similar. I have an extra H&R .357 barrel that I would like to rechamber to this round and I have a few Encore frames if the need arises to buy an Encore barrel in this chambering.

I also have a set of .357 Herrett Diess, so it's not out of the question either.

Also curious to see what BFG comes out with in the coming months.

 

[Broom_jm]

Once I got that stuff so I could reload it, I had some high velocity ammo with lower kick. The powder used in the factory ammo seems to take advantage of a 12" or less barrel, with the longer barrel, I could use a slower powder and make some enjoyable shooting loads. I even played around with some "accelorator" type loads using 44Mag bullets. Much more fun to shoot long sessions with.


p.s. As for greater velocities with longer barrels, with the right powders, I usually get 30fps per extra inch of barrel length. So, since the difference between the two would be about 5", depending, a 150fps increase would be a good thing with that heavy bullet. Better than what you get from another 200 yard gun, my Encore Muzzle Loader with a Hornady FTX in it.

Just for discussion though.

Believe it or not, the powder that produces the best velocity from a 15" barrel, for a given cartridge/bullet, is the exact same powder that will produce the best velocity from a 25" barrel. It is an oft-perpetuated myth that slower-burning powder creates more velocity in a longer barrel. If that were the case, you could use IMR7828 or Retumbo in a 308 case with a 30" barrel to get more velocity...'cept ya can't!

P.S.S. With small-bore rifles, getting an additional 25-30fps, per inch of additional barrel length, is fairly common. With large-bore pistols or rifles...not so much. Run 'em over your chronograph. The expansion ratio of larger calibers change the pressure curve radically, especially when you're dealing with the relatively small powder capacity of a pistol cartridge, fired from a rifle length barrel.

 

[Skip]

Jason,
Don't take my comment to say something that it doesn't expressly say.

Slower powders BY CALIBER always give faster velocities, regardless of barrel length.

H110/W296 in a 44mag will give more velocity in any barrel over a full charge of W231/HP-38 or Bullseye or even Unique.

This has been proven over and over and over and over and........ you get the drift.

Now, if for some stupid reason, you try to load a 44mag with a powder not designed to be in it, all bets are off.

Case in point: 44mag, 240gr 434640 cast of pure wheel weights lubed and sized to .431", from a 5" barreled M629 S&W Classic delivers 1350fps "ish" and the same load from an Encore, Ruger M77/44 or a Marlin 1894, produces right around 1800fps. Done did run them over the chrony and them be the numbers I got!

 

[Hookeye]

Nobody's talking about it much now because it was a common topic under the old case limit (it could take .45 Colt/.454 and/or handloaders trimmed it to legal max).

Making it factory case legal was no big deal (IMHO).

I'd like one in a Ruger #1, but then I'd like a .35 Rem #1 better.

 

[Broom_jm]

Jason,
Don't take my comment to say something that it doesn't expressly say.

Slower powders BY CALIBER always give faster velocities, regardless of barrel length.

H110/W296 in a 44mag will give more velocity in any barrel over a full charge of W231/HP-38 or Bullseye or even Unique.

This has been proven over and over and over and over and........ you get the drift.

Now, if for some stupid reason, you try to load a 44mag with a powder not designed to be in it, all bets are off.

Case in point: 44mag, 240gr 434640 cast of pure wheel weights lubed and sized to .431", from a 5" barreled M629 S&W Classic delivers 1350fps "ish" and the same load from an Encore, Ruger M77/44 or a Marlin 1894, produces right around 1800fps. Done did run them over the chrony and them be the numbers I got!

I am reluctant to use the word "always" when it comes to reloading. For example, a slower-burning powder that exceeds case capacity will not give higher velocity than a slightly faster-burning powder that is more appropriate to the case volume and bullet weight you're working with. With the 44RM, H110/W296 is THE powder. With many other cartridges, like the 460S&W, the answer is not necessarily so obvious. I am not conceding that H110 was designed for the 44RM. As a matter of historical fact, it was designed for another straight walled cartridge; the 30 Carbine. It is called "H110" because of the 110 grain bullet it was seated under in that cartridge.

But for the sake of argument, let's agree that H110 WAS "designed" for the 44RM. What powder was designed for the 460S&W? Is there one powder that is ideal for all bullet weights? Burn rate, case capacity, expansion ratio and bullet weight are all part of internal ballistics equations. The barrel length will help determine velocity, but your ratio of 30fps is far too general, as I will illustrate below.

You're spot-on to note that you can get 1,350fps from a 5" barrel and 240gr bullet, out of a 44RM. However, when you calculate velocity gain versus a 20" barrel, where you witness 1800fps, it is a mistake to use simple math to reach a conclusion. On the surface, you're adding 15" of barrel length and gaining 450fps, so you arrive at 30fps gain, per inch of added barrel length.

What you fail to mention, or simply may not be aware of, is that MOST of that 450fps, comes in the the next 5-10" of barrel. Going from a 5" barrel to a 10" Contender barrel, you add ~200fps. That would be 40fps more velocity for each additional inch of barrel. However, when you go from a 14" Contender barrel to a 20" rifle barrel, you only add about 150fps, for a ratio of 25fps, per inch. Do you see the diminishing return, here? There is a reason most 44RM lever-actions came in a carbine length barrel.

The 460S&W is a whole different ball of wax. It has 50% more case capacity than the 44RM, but only a slightly greater expansion ratio. That means you can use a lot more powder, with a similar burn rate, to maintain higher pressures, longer. This, combined with a much higher maximum average pressure (MAP) is why the 460S&W does great things in a 22" or 24" rifle barrel.

The 460S&W is one of those rare 'tweener cartridges, like the 445 Super Mag, that are just too big for the slowest pistol powders, but not quite big enough for the burn characteristics of the faster rifle powders. AA1680 and Hodgdon's Li'l Gun are two powders that work well for such cartridges, but this is where I really miss the old Winchester 680 powder! That stuff was simply perfect for giant pistol cases and would be awesome in some of today's MAGNUM pistol rounds. I wish somebody would start making it again, but the market is fairly small.

When contemplating how much velocity gain you get by adding a certain number of inches of barrel length, you have to account for the expansion ratio, as well. For the larger bore pistol cartridges we are discussing, there is a point where more is not all that much better.