What's the point?

[Fletch]

I just drove through Indy. Is anyone at all aware that the speed limit on I-70 going through downtown is 55 (in one place 50)? I habitually set my cruise control equal to the speed limit, and apparently this has the effect of royally pissing off Indiana drivers. Not a single car, truck, or semi was going slower than 65, and many had to be approaching 75. We passed two cops, one sitting on the median with his radar gun out, and nobody made the slightest move to slow down. There's apparently no need, because he didn't bother going after anyone.

Libertarians like me like to argue that speed limits are pointless, and that as long as traffic is flowing smoothly the speed at which it is doing so is immaterial. For all practical purposes, Indy was just a perfect demonstration of this. So why have a speed limit at all? Nobody in Indiana seems to care what the signs say.

 

[smoking357]

Speed limits are created for revenue enhancement, to allow cops to have a ready pretextual means to arrest you (and every traffic stop is an arrest), and to create a public that always watches over its shoulder to see if a cop is watching.

There should be no speed limits.

And driving is a right. Just like other rights, you can lose it by committing a crime against another.

 

[Vince49]

Speed limit signs??

 

[IndyMonkey]

gotta fund the court system somehow.

 

[indykid]

I agree with smoking 357 that most speed limits are not for safety but for revenue generation, also known as taxes.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Guys it's not all about revenue with speed limits, for once actually imagine there is a safety factor, otherwise every Tom-Dick & Harriet would think it's the autobahn and try to drive 120mph. Trust me, I see it every day, I drive for a living.

Now for it dropping down to 50 in Indy, that's where the choke point is for traffic.

So put away the tin foil hats for the time being.

 

[NWIeng]

As an engineer, another reason speed limits are set is due to the engineering behind the highway geometry.

When you post a speed limit, you have to design the alignment geometry and radii to correspond with the design speed. You either use broader radii for your highway centerline, or superelevate (bank) the turns to compensate for a tight radius.

You also take into account that there are upper limits at which you can pitch highway lanes, and thus, makes you loosen up your radii to compensate. With eventually in some cases where a tighter radii and a maxed out pavement pitch, comes lower speed limits.

I know some of the turns on I-65 going through Indy top to bottom make me think of this fact everytime I pass through.

 

[Boilers]

I drove 55 on I 70 yesterday. Does that help?

 

[1032JBT]

Speed limits are created for revenue enhancement, to allow cops to have a ready pretextual means to arrest you (and every traffic stop is an arrest), and to create a public that always watches over its shoulder to see if a cop is watching.

There should be no speed limits.

And driving is a right. Just like other rights, you can lose it by committing a crime against another.

Exactly who does this "revenue enhancement" you speak of benefit???

 

[hornadylnl]

Exactly who does this "revenue enhancement" you speak of benefit???

Does the .gov just burn the money traffic tickets generate? The .gov is using that money for something.

 

[1032JBT]

Well everyone acts like we as cops go out and write tickets to pad our agencies budget and it's just not the case. The vast majority of the ticket prices go to the court and the state........not too the agency that is actually out there writing the tickets. So to me from the other side, the aurgument that it's just a revenue generator falls flat.

 

[Gpfury86]

I drove 55 on I 70 yesterday. Does that help?

I drove 150 entering 465 the other day on my bike.... just for a minute blew by a couple semis then slowed back down to reasonable speed and got over.... I don't twist the throttle back hard very often, but when I do it's only for a second. You have to have speed limits or they would have front end loaders placed around interstates so they could scrape all the carnage off into the ditches every so often.

 

[SavageEagle]

Guys it's not all about revenue with speed limits, for once actually imagine there is a safety factor, otherwise every Tom-Dick & Harriet would think it's the autobahn and try to drive 120mph. Trust me, I see it every day, I drive for a living.

Now for it dropping down to 50 in Indy, that's where the choke point is for traffic.

So put away the tin foil hats for the time being.

I understand that point, but I think they should at least raise the speed limits to a reasonable speed. There should be some kind of standard that is reasonable.

Like Fletch said, everyone does 65-75 out on I70 through Indy, even at the downtown split. I'm guilty of it for sure. Why not raise the speed limit on the Interstates or do away with them, but allow officers and encourage officers to give "reckless driving" tickets instead? It would be much more beneficial to do so. It would allow people to drive their desired speed, but discourage them from driving in a reckless manner. Such as weaving in and out of traffic, serious tailgating, road rage incidents, etc.

And the same with US40 in front of Duke. I understand there's a Catholic school there too. However, that school doesn't have much traffic in and out except Sunday's and the beginning and end of School. Sometimes heavy in and out on Wed. too. But 30mph? That's just ridiculous and not many people actually drive 30 through there, nor do they enforce it. Even if the PPD is sitting there at NAPA or the Bank, you can still get away with 35-40. I understand it's residential, but they could raise it to 40 through there with a school zone limit during school until you get past Carr Rd.

I do understand limits in neighborhoods though. Too many kids to allow 50-70mph drivers. But again, that would fall under reckless driving too.

As an engineer, another reason speed limits are set is due to the engineering behind the highway geometry.

When you post a speed limit, you have to design the alignment geometry and radii to correspond with the design speed. You either use broader radii for your highway centerline, or superelevate (bank) the turns to compensate for a tight radius.

You also take into account that there are upper limits at which you can pitch highway lanes, and thus, makes you loosen up your radii to compensate. With eventually in some cases where a tighter radii and a maxed out pavement pitch, comes lower speed limits.

I know some of the turns on I-65 going through Indy top to bottom make me think of this fact everytime I pass through.

This makes a lot of sense, especially on I65 in Indy. However, even with bald tires on dry pavement, you can still drive 70mph safely all the way through with clear traffic. The downtown split is a bit different with all the bends and turns. I just think most of these ramps, turns, bends, etc just need a higher pitch and all would be good.

What is the max pitch allowed? Who sets the max pitch? INDOT? Federal DOT?

Well everyone acts like we as cops go out and write tickets to pad our agencies budget and it's just not the case. The vast majority of the ticket prices go to the court and the state........not too the agency that is actually out there writing the tickets. So to me from the other side, the argument that it's just a revenue generator falls flat.

I always knew the money didn't go to the agency writing the ticket, but the government they work for, be it city/county/state. Either way, it's still a revenue generator for that government. I have heard, although I'm not sure if it's true, that some LE agencies get bonus budgets depending on how many tickets they write if they hit a certain amount. Of course, this was many years ago when I lived in So. IN. so I'm sure things have changed.

Either way, tickets ARE a revenue generator for whatever government the LEO works for.

 

[rich8483]

This makes a lot of sense, especially on I65 in Indy. However, even with bald tires on dry pavement, you can still drive 70mph safely all the way through with clear traffic. The downtown split is a bit different with all the bends and turns. I just think most of these ramps, turns, bends, etc just need a higher pitch and all would be good.

What is the max pitch allowed? Who sets the max pitch? INDOT? Federal DOT?

i would guess the limits are set more by physic limits really. those pitches cant be so much that a semi standing still (backed up traffic/rush hour) wont tip over or that any vehicle whether it be car or semi would slide down it during icy weather while driving slowly

it can be pitched to help you drive faster but not pitched so much that you cant drive on it slow under unusual but for certain circumstances.

 

[SavageEagle]

i would guess the limits are set more by physic limits really. those pitches cant be so much that a semi standing still (backed up traffic/rush hour) wont tip over or that any vehicle whether it be car or semi would slide down it during icy weather while driving slowly

it can be pitched to help you drive faster but not pitched so much that you cant drive on it slow under unusual but for certain circumstances.

That's a good point. I hadn't thought about that when I posted it for some reason. But with Ice, the pitch won't matter as any pitch would have any car or truck sliding. Still a catch-22 in my book I guess.

Time to pony up some tax dollars to fund Highway Heaters!

 

[Gpfury86]

Time to pony up some tax dollars to fund Highway Heaters!

Would probably be better off spent on that then some of the things tax dollars are wasted on.....

 

[SavageEagle]

Would probably be better off spent on that then some of the things tax dollars are wasted on.....

I should have put it in purple, but I figured the laugh smilie would do. I did use to think that installing some kind of electric heating system on the highways would end up paying for itself since it could be ran with Solar Panels feeding electricity into the rebar in the concrete/asphalt, and the fact that we'd save millions in not having to salt the highways, but...

 

[loony1]

my wife (34 tomorrow) just got her first ticket last monday from a state leo. Red mustang, w/ nascar stickers on back window, oooooops,damn,wtf,seriously. The old govt. needs the moola folks, hurry up and speed damnit...

 

[SavageEagle]

my wife (34 tomorrow) just got her first ticket last monday from a state leo. Red mustang, w/ nascar stickers on back window, oooooops,damn,wtf,seriously. The old govt. needs the moola folks, hurry up and speed damnit...

Happy birthday to the Mrs.!

Personally, I think I've paid my fair share in seat belt tickets alone. After 16 of them you would think they would get it through their heads I'm not wearing one in town and I wear it with my arm OVER the shoulder strap when I do wear it.

Hey, at least I'm wearing it sometimes....

 

[level.eleven]

Once you get past the college students and their commentary, the money shot comes around the 2:00 mark. Ever wonder what it would look like if everyone on 465 drove the speed limit? This video is of Atlanta's loop.

YouTube - 55: A Meditation on the Speed Limit

Here is a CBS video on the topic of shared space. Several towns in Europe have removed all traffic signs throughout town. An interesting result occurred, traffic accidents fell. The researchers in the towns realize that when you remove the certainty and complacency that traffic regulations provide and leave people to their own devices, they handle the situation much better than traffic engineers. In essence, they are removing the burden of safety from the state, and placing on those who are actually using the roadways at that time to determine the safest ways to proceed. When traffic is controlled by a light, for example, our natural tendency is to become complacent and rely on the light to direct our safest course of action. Many times drivers proceed not because the intersection is clear and all danger is a bay, but rather because the light is green.

Shared Space - CBS News Video

I would also challenge the assertion that no speed limits will result in chaos on the roads. Yes there will be a very small minority of idiots that push the envelope. But, as with firearms licensing and criminals, these people aren't going to abide by 2 numbers on a white sign to begin with. What people do want, is to reach their destination safely. When Montana removed speed limits on all non-urban roads traffic fatalities stayed exactly the same. People tend to drive at speeds they feel comfortable with along with the speed of those around them. I compare this to the theory of emergence - structure formed out of chaos. Probably not a 100% application, but I think it ties in.