Well, Worked Up A Load

[IN_Varmntr]

Congrats on starting to reload. That first trigger pull on a freshly loaded round is a good rush isn't it?

 

[Wabatuckian]

It's something...

.5cc approximately equals 8 grains, Mike. Just different units of measurement. Kinda' like yards vs meters.

I have a conversion chart that I reference. It came from Lee. There are certain powders that you cannot use with the dippers.

I do not like the beam scale, and if I decide I want to do more of my own load developing, I'll end up with a digital.

In this powder, .5cc or 8 grains is a starting load, so there seems to be a bit of room for error.

Josh <><

P.S. Got a Lee book sitting right here, on loan from the gunshop. J.S.

 

[strongcrow]

Good job Josh. I'm assuming here you're reloading .45, right?? Also, powder is somewhat compressable, so the dippers might give you variations from one to the next. Possibly with disasterous results. Inattention and bad lighting cost me a frame for a Les Baer, which was rather costly. Not to mention embarssing. So good job, just be very careful.......

 

[42769vette]

congrats

 

[IN_Varmntr]

When I started out with a Lee single turret press, I was reloading 223 Rem for my bolt gun. It took me forever to load up 50 rounds or so due to the fact that I weighed every charge with a beam scale.

But I was 16 at the time, and my father told me I was going to learn the slowest, hardest way before I was able to get components that would pick up the pace a little.

After 4 years, we just picked up a Hornady LNL AutoProgressing press capable of around 500 rounds per hour depending on what components you are using.

Anywho, once you start, getting into the habit of doing things the right way everytime is a wise thing to do. This will save you time and money on new gun components and medical bills.

Not saying you're doing it the "wrong" way, but just a less accurate way. Reloading is something you want to be as accurate as possible with, especially with powder charges.

I figured I would show you the differences in powder charges that dippers will give you. I dug out my Lee dippers, grabbed the .5cc dipper and took a few charges of Bullseye pistol powder and weighed them out on my digital scale.

Setting the scale up...

Zeroed it for the powder pan...

Using a .5cc powder dipper...

And I'll let the rest of the pics speak for themselves...

 

[BE Mike]

It's hard to tell from the photos of the ammo. Are you using a taper crimp?

 

[Joe Williams]

It's something...

.5cc approximately equals 8 grains, Mike. Just different units of measurement. Kinda' like yards vs meters.

I have a conversion chart that I reference. It came from Lee. There are certain powders that you cannot use with the dippers.

I do not like the beam scale, and if I decide I want to do more of my own load developing, I'll end up with a digital.

In this powder, .5cc or 8 grains is a starting load, so there seems to be a bit of room for error.

Josh <><

P.S. Got a Lee book sitting right here, on loan from the gunshop. J.S.

Dippers are perfectly safe, and very accurate, so long as you use them properly. The best way I've read is to sink the dipper in bottom first, pull it out, and run the edge of a business card across the top. Do this consistently, and your loads WILL be consistent, according to my scale. The dippers can be more accurate than my powder measure. If you are getting big variations, you are doing it wrong. Slower, though.

 

[IN_Varmntr]

I appreciate it folks.
I've read about the automatic powder feeders being off by as much as .5grn between charges as well, and that's one reason I really didn't look seriously at them.

A few of the "cheaper" ones do tend to throw off charges. I started out with a Lee and it would leak powder through the seams and such, and charges would be off as much a .5 grains. Once I found that out, I quit using it, and used the beam scale until our digital scale arrived.

The digital scale I've got can be had for around 25 bucks if you catch it on sale.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=713372

Whichever digital scale you go with, make sure to take some rubbing alcohol and swab the batter terminals and the battery itself. I've found that dirty connections will throw off accuracy.

The more accurate ones throw charges well within .1 grains of each other.

I've run 5 charge measurements on the auto charger of my Hornady press and they've come well within .1 grains of each other.

But since I'm running volume out of my press, I average the 5 charges and decide that's what it's throwing each time. I've weighed individual charges as well, and it all comes out to the same thing.

<.1 grains variance.

 

[Wabatuckian]

It's hard to tell from the photos of the ammo. Are you using a taper crimp?

I am using Lee's factory crimp die.

When I took it apart a while back, it looked like it would put a shallow taper on the case.

So I guess, "probably." Whatever it does, it works.

I'm not crimping it like it has a crimping groove or anything, not like a rifle bullet with a cannelure (sp?).

I do not know the difference between a taper and a roll crimp. Can someone help me on this? I don't see it in this book... but maybe I'm overlooking it, too.

Josh <><

 

[Wabatuckian]

Nevermind, I found it.

It's definitely a taper crimp.

Right there in front. Need to learn to look better I guess!

Josh <><

 

[Old Syko]

Josh you have completely missed the point of proper powder measurement as it pertains to safety. You may have a dipper and powder combination that presently offers approximately 7.2 grain charges, but the next lot # of powder you get may vary greatly in bulk to weight compared to your present lot therefore the need for use of a beam scale EVERY TIME. Your variation of .3 grains is totally unacceptable. There is NO direct correlation between volume and weight in the real world when dealing with different lots of the same number powder. I've seen lot variations of as much as 20% volume to weight from the same powders but different lots. You've gotten lucky once but you won't be so lucky every time.

The term "working up a load" refers to the practice of starting with the lowest listed load, putting together a number of rounds, test firing them and recording the results of velocity, accuracy, and pressure signs. From there you increase the charge in small increments, (in the case of small handgun charges such increments should never exceed .3 grains) and repeat until you achieve your assumed goal which for most of us is a combination of safe pressure limits, high velocity and most of all superior accuracy. Merely putting together a load because someone has said it is a good load is dangerous and will eventually prove itself to be as much.

Please for your own good acquire some reliable manuals and absorb everything they have to offer before you continue. Even then you will see sometimes great variations in load data. That is why it is always good to combine the use of 3 manuals for each load you intend to work up. One manual from the bullet manufacturer, one from the powder manufacturer, and one independent, such as Lyman. Lee data, although independent, is not considered a reliable source of data in proper loading circles and in fact is frowned upon by most experienced loaders.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Old Syko,

No, the correlation between volume and weight was not lost on me. I would expect a totally different weight with extruded powder, and another one with flake.

I was working off a target load that was given to me, 8 grains being max. The person who gave this load to me, I trust implicitly. He uses this load himself and I've shot it from his guns.

I do have a book on loan from the gunshop until mine arrives.

Thanks for the concern,

Josh <><

 

[slow1911s]

Here's a vote for beam scales. I had a digital that wouldn't "settle down" when I tried to zero or weigh something (narrowed it down to RF interference.) I did some reading to find out that benchrest guys swear by Redding beam scales. I found a old, used one Ebay for $30 - one of the bet investments I made in reloading.

If you're only using these for target practice, you might consider backing off a bit. 230s at 980 is pretty swift, and if shot in any volume, pretty hard on you and your pistol. You might look for a load that pushes around ~725 fps. You'll save on powder and yourself. 4.5 grs of Winchester 231 or 4.0 grs of Hogdon Titegroup would get you there. 3.6 grs of Hogdon Clays would be sweet.

If I reloaded 45 ACP (and I don't, for the record, but I've loaded more 40 S&W and 38 Super than I care to describe) Bullseye would not be my choice. My gunsmith (Neil Keller) has a 5" slide on his window sill that met its maker at the hands of a double charge of Bullseye - not pretty.

 

[Wabatuckian]

If you're only using these for target practice, you might consider backing off a bit. 230s at 980 is pretty swift, and if shot in any volume, pretty hard on you and your pistol. You might look for a load that pushes around ~725 fps. You'll save on powder and yourself. 4.5 grs of Winchester 231 or 4.0 grs of Hogdon Titegroup would get you there. 3.6 grs of Hogdon Clays would be sweet.

Hello,

Where did you get this? I would guess I'm running 800fps or a bit less - the charge I'm using is well below maximum.

I think I may have said something about factory XTP FPD ammo being run at 950fps or so, but they're +P.

I'm running below minimum, a target charge.

Or did I make a typo?

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[mospeada]

FWIW, I like the beam scale better (I have a dillon beam). The digitals are OK, but I find the beam faster to check charges as I can lock down the weights and quickly get a reading. It is purely my preference and I really thought I'd like a digital better as it would be quicker or more accurate and my experience is that is just not the case.

As for using the lee dippers, you can do that, but like has been said, be consistent about it and/or don't go too close to the max or min charges.

 

[slow1911s]

Hello,

Where did you get this? I would guess I'm running 800fps or a bit less - the charge I'm using is well below maximum.

I think I may have said something about factory XTP FPD ammo being run at 950fps or so, but they're +P.

I'm running below minimum, a target charge.

Or did I make a typo?

Thanks,

Josh <><

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you said that your loads were doing 950. I get it now.

But...this brings us to another important point - get a chronograph. All of the load data in the world won't tell you what your ammo is really doing, but a chrono will. Don't guess - know.

 

[Joe Williams]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood. I thought that you said that your loads were doing 950. I get it now.

But...this brings us to another important point - get a chronograph. All of the load data in the world won't tell you what your ammo is really doing, but a chrono will. Don't guess - know.

Ditto this. My wife gave me a Chrony from Cabella's, and it was a MAJOR shock to me to see how not even close my reloads were to what the books said I should be getting. Plus, it can really help you figure out how well you are putting your loads together by showing you how consistent it is.

They aren't outrageously expensive. Mine was about $100. Doesn't have any bells and whistles, but can be upgraded over time if I wish. It works just fine as is for my purposes.

 

[Old Syko]

Old Syko,

No, the correlation between volume and weight was not lost on me. I would expect a totally different weight with extruded powder, and another one with flake.

Josh <><

Josh You really don't get my point! I'm not talking about a volume to weight difference between different powders. Like I said, you will find weight to volume differences from one lot number to the next of the same powder. In your case AA#5. Don't count on that dipper holding the same amount from one can of powder to the next without checking weights with a scale.

Also like I've said before, dump the Lee data while you still have the chance unless you are a masochist.

As far as scales go, the electronics are nice as long as they are regularly checked for accuracy against a known good beam scale. Some of the electronic scales can be affected by RF as mentioned and other electrical anomalies. Such anomolies can come from some strange places. One of the most common sources are flourescent lights that most of us have hanging over our load benches. These anomalies can have a deadly outcome unless avoided by mechanical means such as a beam scale.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Josh You really don't get my point! I'm not talking about a volume to weight difference between different powders. Like I said, you will find weight to volume differences from one lot number to the next of the same powder. In your case AA#5. Don't count on that dipper holding the same amount from one can of powder to the next without checking weights with a scale.

I understand what you're saying. This is why I'm not approaching maximum with the dippers.

The next lot I buy, I will check to see if the calibration is the same. I may switch powders and start over though, just so I can standardize on something that's common around here.

Thanks again for your concern,

Josh <><

 

[BE Mike]

The difference between a roll crimp and a taper crimp is that a roll crimp, "rolls in" the case mouth into the bullet at an angle approaching 90 degrees. Use a roll crimp when loading bullets with a cantelure, which is that thin ring impressed around the bullet where the bullet is to be seated. I use a roll crimp on magnum loads, like .357 mag. and .44 mag. The roll crimp keeps the bullet from moving forward in the case which can happen from recoil when shooting high pressure loads. This is especially important in revolvers. The unfired rounds in a revolver's cylinder, if not heavily roll crimped can move forward out of the case and result in the cylinder binding and locking up the gun. Most semi-autos work great with a taper crimp. I use a taper crimp for my .38 SPL, 9mm, and .45 ACP loads. I even use a light taper crimp when loading my favorite jacketed bullet for the .45 ACP, the Nosler 185 gr. JHP.

It looks like you are on the right track. I'd say you are loading safe plinking loads. You can add things as you need them. All the extras add speed to the process, as well as, consistency. Consistency is the name of the game in reloading, especially when one is looking for accuracy and reliability.