Wanted: Advice from INGO plumbers

[Suprtek]

I'll try to keep this as brief as possible but this story may get a bit involved. To those of you willing to bear with me, it is appreciated. I'm having some issues with my well. I noticed about a week ago that my pump was cycling every 1.5 minutes or so even when no water was being used. I searched for leaks and found none. I found that closing a valve between the pressure switch and the house had no effect on the problem. After asking a few questions of friends and looking a bit on line, I decided to install a check valve right before the pressure switch. This seems to have allowed the system to hold pressure and stop the pump from running when no water was being used. I was unable to locate any check valves in any of the plumbing I can see so I am assuming there is a check valve near the pump that is failing. Since the water is very bad in my area and the system is still obviously losing pressure on the pump side of my new check valve, I am getting excess sediment in my water especially first thing in the morning when the pump has been off for a while. Whenever I have relieved the pressure in my system for any reason in the past, I have always gotten a lot of black water when I turn it back on. There is a drain valve just after the pressure switch that allows me to attach a hose to flush this black water out without sending it through the house plumbing. Also, since I installed the new check valve, the plumbing tends to bang loudly when the pump shuts off. Especially if more than one water source is being used at one time.

So here are my questions: If I pull my pump out of the well, am I likely to find a check valve near it that I should replace?

My pump is 22 years old. I know the pump itself is working fine. Is this old enough to replace it if I have to pull it up anyway?

Is the new check valve installed so close to the switch likely the cause of the banging when the pump shuts off?

Will a new check valve near the pump likely correct my sediment problem?

If I replace the check valve near the pump, should I remove the one I just installed near the switch?

I am obviously not a plumber, is there anything else I need to know?


INGO has always been a wonderful source of help and information to lots of people regarding lots of subjects. I would like to thank all those willing to help right now because I'm confident I will get some kind of helpful information. That's just the kind of people we have here.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'm not a plumber, but it makes sense to me that after 22 years if you yank the pump for a check valve,, replacing it might not be a bad idea since you already have half the work done.

Id hate to see you replace a check valve (if that's what it is) only to have to pay a plumber agin in a couple years to pull the pump up AGAIN to replace it.

 

[eric001]

Have you thought of also installing a whole house water filter? Probably won't stop the racket from the lines banging, but it ought to get rid of the crud coming up.

 

[BigBoxaJunk]

I've never had a submersible pump, but the check valve is probably right at the pump at the bottom of the line in your well. If your plumbing is tight between the new check valve and the pump, you should be OK, if that's all that was wrong. I have high iron in my water also, and the black stuff has always been normal to see after I shut off the pump and then turn it back on. With a pump that old, the question is; When will it choose to fail? In the middle of winter when the ground is frozen? I might be tempted to pull and replace it if it's that old and is acting up, when I can plan for it and do it on MY schedule instead of having to sweat it out without water at some later point.

The hammering is caused by the water, which is rushing through the pipe, suddenly stopping when you shut it off. You can install a dampening device on the main line, or you can install a pipe that sticks up from the main line that has an air space which will accomplish the same thing. Google it and you'll find info on that.

Also, I put in a sediment filter some years ago to protect a new softener from sediment and I think it's a good idea to have one.

 

[IndyGunworks]

Do you not have a pressure tank? I believe those play a big role in eliminating water hammer.

 

[bcannon]

In answer to your questions -

Q1 - Yes there should be a check valve internally in the pump or externally mounted directly to your pump
Q2 - Yes usually when a pump has been in that long without issue the first issues are a intro to a "Nickel Dime" death 70% of the time
Q3 - the banging your getting is from the check vavle slamming shut and "Hammering" of the pipes. The difference in pressures between your check valve and pump is what is causing it
Q4 - im not sure yout check would be causing the sediment its more than likely a hole in your drop pipe spraying against your well wall stirring dirt, rock, sediment etc and send it thru your system clogging your check valve or a clogged/colapsed screen on your pump allowing the same thing sediment thru your system

I would pull your pump inspect your drop pipe and your pump your issue will be obvious - btw a whole house filter never hurts as long as you keep it maintained

 

[churchmouse]

I think that is called a foot valve at the pump IMSC.

 

[bcannon]

Theres a foot valve on a jet pump theres a check valve on a submersible

 

[ghuns]

I just had a new 4" submersible pump installed. The old pump was 25 years old and had been dying a slow death for awhile. $750 and the guy and his kid were at the house for exactly 40 minutes. After seeing it done, I was mad I didn't just do it myself.

 

[bcannon]

Once you see it it seems very simple - depending on your issue and what its installed on it can be quite simple - if its on poly and shallow its simple easy a little bit of a work out not bad tho definately a dyi with a little mechanical ability and basic electrical knowledge - on steel threaded pipe and deep call someone with the knowledge and tools to correctly pull it - a pump truck and insured a plus - drop you pump and might as well drill another - youll have to pay them to come try to pull it out normally 30% success rate and if they cant you will have to pay them more to drill another - dyi projects are great if you know your limitations if not they can be quite costly

 

[ghuns]

if its on poly and shallow its simple easy a little bit of a work out not bad tho definately a dyi with a little mechanical ability and basic electrical knowledge

Yeah, mine was poly and around a hundred feet. Just unhook the wires, pull the ripcord, and drag it outta the hole.

 

[churchmouse]

Theres a foot valve on a jet pump theres a check valve on a submersible

New I was close.....

 

[Suprtek]

I really appreciate everyone's input. Here's an update. There is still no evidence of any leaks in or around the house. The system is still losing pressure on the pump side of the new check I installed because any time no water is used for any length of time I get lots of air and sediment. The pump is going to have to come up to fix the problem. After checking with some of my neighbors, I've found that many of the wells in this area are over 100 feet deep. I am not going to attempt pulling a pump from that depth on my own. If I drop that thing after removing a section of pipe that allows me to reach it, I'm SOL. Dropping it would also run the risk of damaging the casing which could easily require drilling a whole new well. If I'm going to pay to have this done, I want the benefit of a warranty on the work. I'm sure if I tried hard enough I could find someone in the INGO family willing to help me with it. However I would not feel comfortable asking for a warranty on a favor. I have a reputable company scheduled to come out tomorrow afternoon. My plan is to have them fix the problem related to the well itself. Any issues inside the house I am confident I can handle on my own but I will certainly listen to their recommendations about what needs to be done.

So my next questions are...What is a reasonable price for having a well pump replaced considering the well may be 150 feet deep?

Is there some type of service or cleaning of the well that is normally done during this process?

What kind of warranty should I be able to expect for this work?

I realize I should have asked those questions before I scheduled them to come out but I was making this call while I was working and had little time to talk to them. Frankly, I trust the answers I get here more anyway.

I'll post an update when I know more. Thanks again guys! Oh, and BTW, in the meantime I decided to shut down and put my water softener on bypass to avoid all the excess sediment running through it. Its old too and I'd rather not have to replace it as well right now. I know I'm going to have to clean or replace all my faucet strainers when this is over but I have to have some kind of water supply. We use filter pitchers for drinking water so we're still OK there.

 

[The Keymaster]

I had my well pump replaced 3 years ago. Our well is 155 feet deep. The price including the pump and a new pressure switch was less than $900.00. The service was also performed on the Monday after Christmas (which was on Sunday that year) and some would consider that a holiday. I know my office was closed that day because I was home.

 

[Suprtek]

I had my well pump replaced 3 years ago. Our well is 155 feet deep. The price including the pump and a new pressure switch was less than $900.00. The service was also performed on the Monday after Christmas (which was on Sunday that year) and some would consider that a holiday. I know my office was closed that day because I was home.

Thank you. Would you mind telling me what all that service included? If they replaced the pressure switch, can I assume they made sure the air pressure in the pressure tank was proper? Did they do any type of "cleaning" of the well? Did they provide you with recommendations about what to do to improve the rest of your system?

 

[MAJB Retired]

the pump cycling on and off could be the result of the tank bladder going bad. I had one at the house and one at the rental property. I replaced the tanks and the problem was resolved.

 

[The Keymaster]

Thank you. Would you mind telling me what all that service included? If they replaced the pressure switch, can I assume they made sure the air pressure in the pressure tank was proper? Did they do any type of "cleaning" of the well? Did they provide you with recommendations about what to do to improve the rest of your system?

They replaced the pressure switch before doing anything else. The pump was shorted, so they had a little trouble diagnosing the issue, so they started with the switch. The switch was as old as the house and the pump (17 years), so it was time for a change anyhow. The pressure tank was almost new, and we had a whole house filter installed when we replaced the softener in 09, so there was no service required there. They pulled the cap and pulled the pump up a few feet. They then put a machine in place that had 3 rubber wheels. The wheels grasped the PVC drop pipe and pulled it up electrically. They pulled it up 10 feet at a time, disconnected that section, and then pulled up another 10 feet until they got to the pump. They then replaced the pump, properly completed all the electrical connections, and reversed the procedure going back down into the casing. The entire job took 2 men 3 hours.

Our soil is sandy clay. I do get some sediment, hence the whole house filter. I have noticed that the amount of sediment decreased dramatically after the new pump went in. The new pump was slightly shorter...perhaps that had something to do with it. I change the whole house filter 3 times per year now...it was every 2 months before.

 

[RobbyMaQ]

Good to know. I've always had a check valve in the house. I did not realize one was at the pump.
Similar deal, if I don't have one installed, I get air in the line. I've always had sediment, requiring replacing a whole house filter about every 2-3 months.

Mine is also 100' deep, about 20 years old, and not interested in tackling it myself (okay, maybe in mid summer but thats about it).

South of 1k for replacement doesn't sound bad at all. Perhaps it may solve my sediment problem. Something to ponder.

 

[Suprtek]

They replaced the pressure switch before doing anything else. The pump was shorted, so they had a little trouble diagnosing the issue, so they started with the switch. The switch was as old as the house and the pump (17 years), so it was time for a change anyhow. The pressure tank was almost new, and we had a whole house filter installed when we replaced the softener in 09, so there was no service required there. They pulled the cap and pulled the pump up a few feet. They then put a machine in place that had 3 rubber wheels. The wheels grasped the PVC drop pipe and pulled it up electrically. They pulled it up 10 feet at a time, disconnected that section, and then pulled up another 10 feet until they got to the pump. They then replaced the pump, properly completed all the electrical connections, and reversed the procedure going back down into the casing. The entire job took 2 men 3 hours.

Our soil is sandy clay. I do get some sediment, hence the whole house filter. I have noticed that the amount of sediment decreased dramatically after the new pump went in. The new pump was slightly shorter...perhaps that had something to do with it. I change the whole house filter 3 times per year now...it was every 2 months before.

Thanks for the details! It really does help. My pressure switch is less than 2 years old but if they want to replace it for warranty reasons I won't argue. They don't cost much. Hopefully my job will be as quick!

 

[Suprtek]

the pump cycling on and off could be the result of the tank bladder going bad. I had one at the house and one at the rental property. I replaced the tanks and the problem was resolved.

I'm pretty sure my pressure tank is good. Changing the pressure in the tank drastically affects how the pump runs and the amount of water hammer I get. Those changes seem to stay the same until the pressure in the tank is changed again too. I'm sure the pro that comes out will be able to verify that though.