USPSA weapon light rule change?

[justacog]

For discussion of the weapon light rule change:

USPSA competition rule changes​

USPSA Headquarters
Mar 05, 2021
All Announcements
USPSA competition rules were adjusted to reflect changes in equipment position requirements for Production, Single Stack, and Carry Optics, as well as the addition of a firearm-mounted flashlight.
In the February 2021 USPSA Board of Directors Meeting, a few rules were updated in the firearm equipment appendices to make placement of pistols and magazine pouches consistent in all USPSA Divisions. The goal is to make the process easier for members to understand and less subjectively enforced at matches, resulting in fewer competitors moved to a less competitive division for their firearm at registration, and even fewer moved to Open Division because of their holster or magazine pouch position. This less restrictive change will allow members to use their “every day carry” holster position for Production and Carry Optics Divisions without being moved to Limited or Open where the holster position is less restrictive.
With regard to the same consistent application of division equipment rules, the use of a firearm-mounted light was also approved. This should also result in fewer competitors being moved to a division where their firearm, usually their defensive firearm, is not competitive. Allowing the use of a functional mounted light to a firearm that meets division weight and size limit otherwise will allow those members to compete in a division where their firearm is most competitive.
Please note that all other rules including the type of holster, height of the firearm, and distance from the belt have not changed.
The Single Stack Division weight limit was increased to accommodate a wider variety of factory produced pistols common in the marketplace, specifically in 9mm.
Here are the specific changes to the rules:
o App. D2-D7, Item 14 – Changed to ‘Yes, must be functional’
o App. D4, D5, D7, Item 12 – Removed reference to App. E3
o App. D4, D5, D7, Item 20, 4th bullet point – Removed ‘Magazines may not be retained through magnetic means.’
o App. E3 – Deleted bottom diagram showing equipment position in relation to hip bones
o App. D5, Item 18 – Maximum single stack weight with empty mag increased from 43 oz. to 45 oz.

 

[justacog]

This is uncanny because I just set up my carry rig with a weapon light and was grousing about not being able to run it that way in USPSA without going Open category.

I have a TLR-2 which has light+laser. Now I'm wondering now if I can run it with the switch set to light only. The rules mandate that the light must be functional so I can't just take the battery out.

 

[Grelber]

Not a fan of changes that make the equipment a whole lot of people have already invested in worth a lot less, unless there is a very good reason. If the added weight is an advantage I don't see this as a good move for the majority of shooters, if it is not, then aok fine. Looks like a good move for vendors.

 

[Jaybird1980]

Not a fan of changes that make the equipment a whole lot of people have already invested in worth a lot less, unless there is a very good reason. If the added weight is an advantage I don't see this as a good move for the majority of shooters, if it is not, then aok fine. Looks like a good move for vendors.

Every couple 2-3 years it seems like there is a change that gives people another excuse to change up their gear. The increased weight is going to be good for the guys that are always looking to game everything, magnetic mag carriers, tungsten grip modules, weight kits people will be changing all kinds of things.
The guys that bounce between open/limited and production have to be really happy.

 

[IsThatLegal?]

I think it may be good for the first time shooters that show up to a match with their aiwb holster and pistol mounted flashlight set up for personal carry that want to get good with that equipment. Several show up with that kind of equipment and are told they cant shoot, or they need to go buy a bunch of different equipment to shoot uspsa. It turns them off to uspsa IMO. I think its a good move that will get more people shooting.

And i also understand the effects it can have on others. I spent my share of $ modifying guns to shoot CO early on, only to have the rules change to allow more weight, etc. CO has become one of the most popular divisions.

 

[longbeard]

This is uncanny because I just set up my carry rig with a weapon light and was grousing about not being able to run it that way in USPSA without going Open category.

I have a TLR-2 which has light+laser. Now I'm wondering now if I can run it with the switch set to light only. The rules mandate that the light must be functional so I can't just take the battery out.

This is to prevent people from filling the light with lead. They will probably figure out how to do that anyway.

 

[longbeard]

Flashlights, but still 10 rounds in production smh.

 

[IsThatLegal?]

As technology changes, divisions will fall out of favor and be less popular.

 

[Tanfodude]

I like the holster/mag pouch change so that retrieving the 5th isn't like reaching for my buttcrack anymore. I like they kept the 10 round mag instead of the gay 15.

My only concern is that if there's a major match with a low light stage inside a dim house. i can't mount a light on my stock 2.

 

[Tanfodude]

I think it may be good for the first time shooters that show up to a match with their aiwb holster and pistol mounted flashlight set up for personal carry that want to get good with that equipment. Several show up with that kind of equipment and are told they cant shoot, or they need to go buy a bunch of different equipment to shoot uspsa. It turns them off to uspsa IMO. I think its a good move that will get more people shooting.

And i also understand the effects it can have on others. I spent my share of $ modifying guns to shoot CO early on, only to have the rules change to allow more weight, etc. CO has become one of the most popular divisions.

Yup, dot and only one mag change, sometimes no mag change. That's the selling point right there.

 

[JCSR]

I've never seen a WML that couldn't be detached easily. Why change a rule?

 

[sv40sw45]

I like the holster/mag pouch change so that retrieving the 5th isn't like reaching for my buttcrack anymore. I like they kept the 10 round mag instead of the gay 15.

My only concern is that if there's a major match with a low light stage inside a dim house. i can't mount a light on my stock 2.

Single stack going for the 5th mag with a replaced shoulder if PAINFULL!!!

 

[Latewatch]

When I first started shooting this stuff, the hot set up was a single stack .45 comp gun with iron sights and soon after the "gamers" started using single stack.38 Supers. No divisions, everyone competed straight up and run what you brung. Rule changes happen, over the years some have been good and some not so good. I find it refreshing that a lot of the recent changes have been oriented towards expanding what is allowable instead of restricting it. I am personally a fan of the new changes as it will allow me to shoot with my duty gun and EDC (which both have lights) and my AIWB EDC holster. Just my .02 after almost 40 years

 

[ECS686]

I saw where USPSA made several changes that IDPA seems to be against.

Here is a viewpoint I happened across by accident a couple days ago. Sort of an interesting take! Might have to get back into it since I can't get anyone to shoot IDPA.

 

[jakemartens]

I saw where USPSA made several changes that IDPA seems to be against.

Here is a viewpoint I happened across by accident a couple days ago. Sort of an interesting take! Might have to get back into it since I can't get anyone to shoot IDPA.

Some one gets it..

The part I like the best about the people complaining are people that say the board is in a vacuum.
I am the one that did the presentations both last year and this year on the Production/CO changes and the recent changes.
I am pretty sure I don't live in a bubble and pretty active over the last 16 years of being involved in USPSA shooting, putting on matches and interacting with the membership and the industry.

 

[ECS686]

Some one gets it..

The part I like the best about the people complaining are people that say the board is in a vacuum.
I am the one that did the presentations both last year and this year on the Production/CO changes and the recent changes.
I am pretty sure I don't live in a bubble and pretty active over the last 16 years of being involved in USPSA shooting, putting on matches and interacting with the membership and the industry.

I've not shot a lot of USPSA the last 5 or so years but you have always done a great job Jake! To me (as an amature that tried running some matches) I'm not sure the ones that complain the most realize all the behind the scenes work, time and in select cases some ego stroking needed to make everyone happy. And thats just a local match.

To articulate and make the changes needed for rules in a sanctioned organization nationwide takes time and is a lot more to undertake!

 

[Grelber]

The part I like the best about the people complaining are people that say the board is in a vacuum.

I see it as stating the obvious rather than complaining. It is good that you were involved but it appears that 99% of the membership was not asked or involved so I don't see how that is relevant. USPSA is good about advertising changes after the fact, and USPSA is good at taking polls come election time, it is hard to understand why USPSA does not bother to use existing tools to poll the membership regarding changes.

 

[jakemartens]

I see it as stating the obvious rather than complaining. It is good that you were involved but it appears that 99% of the membership was not asked or involved so I don't see how that is relevant. USPSA is good about advertising changes after the fact, and USPSA is good at taking polls come election time, it is hard to understand why USPSA does not bother to use existing tools to poll the membership regarding changes.
When you don’t see me at a local club match that is because I am usually on the ground somewhere else in the country and usually that involves talking to members. I spend a lot of time on the phone, on email and interacting with the membership on a daily basis for the last 6 and half years of working for USPSA.

when you don’t see me at a local match that is because I am usually somewhere else in the country on the ground at a match, talking and interaction with the members. I spend most of my time engaging members through email, phone calls and social media daily. I work directly with clubs and match directors all across the country on a daily basis helping solve problems and engage with them on what is going on at their club, or section.
I work directly with each of the Area Directors weekly that all spend time interacting with members in their areas everyday, I interact with each of the RMI’s that are teaching classes to members every weekend across the country.
What you don’t see doesn’t mean it isn’t happening on a daily basis all across the country at uspsa and steel challenge matches daily.
If you bothered to look at the rest of the presentations and the numbers like the guy in the video you too would see some trends.
One of them is that the active non-members that shoot uspsa make up a lot of activity but find no reason to join. There are a large portion of them that find no reason to get classified in a division that their selection of gear makes them not competitive.
This is not an open gun, but because of the light or holster placement that is where they were stuck.
There are a lot more of these guns sold then open guns, making the gear more inclusive makes USPSA more appealing to more shooters.
We currently have a 46% turn over rate, for many reasons, but one of the big ones is everyday gear that is practical isn’t practical in the practical shooting sports. We are our own worst enemy when we stick a guy in open or limited because of the Glock 17 he showed up with has a light or he is using his carry holster. What do we do? Stick them in a division where they are not competitive, tell them they are not competitive, but don’t worry. Then tell them to be competitive they need to go and buy a different gun, a different holster, and start reloading ammo. That guy doesn’t come back. And yes I have talked to people like this for the last 3 years on a regular basis, read their emails, read their post, and talked with industry people that have seen the samething over and over again.
Then we stand there and say no one shows up, we can’t get help, or complain that new people don’t know anything. We bump them to open because of their holster is an inch too far forward, or we degrade their choice of firearm they show up with. Why would they join, why would they want to help?
This is a hobby, at best an amateur sport, but the original intent was to push the development of people’s shooting skills and the gear and firearms associated with it.

Here is some good information about what the founding principles of Action Shooting were based on

https://www.krtraining.com/IPSC_1976_Columbia_Conference_Minutes.pdf

Here are a few highlights

The conference next directed its attention to the definition of a practical holster. It was suggested that the characteristics of the course of fire should be such that only a practical holster would suffice. This was countered by the idea that we must not restrict ourselves to one type of contest. The suggestion was made that any complete course of fire should include at least 50 percent of its problems as fired from a concealed carry. It was further agreed that the exact design of a holster must not be frozen by regulations in order to avoid lack of progress in holster design. The great virtue of practical competition is the encouragement of innovation. If holster restrictions are too specific this will result in the absence of progress in this important field.
The conference then directed itself to the current state of practical pistolcraft. The need for armed defense of the individual is increasing, rather than decreasing, throughout the world. Practical shooters may offer a very valuable aid to the public in perfecting systems useful to police, military, and private citizens in the defense of their lives and property. Various members pointed out that we can do society an important service by developing proper systems for personal defense.
This discussion was followed by the agreement that the sporting aspect of practical shooting must be heavily emphasized. In many parts of the world any suggestion that a sidearm is to be used as a weapon causes resistance, whereas international sporting competition is more readily accepted.
These two views were synthesized in the position that practical pistol craft can be both things at once, simultaneously a means of saving lives in an increasingly turbulent world; and an exciting, demanding, exhilarating, and ornamental sport.
The next issue under discussion was the need to maintain the principles of practicality in all shooting programs. If practical shooting is not truly practical it has no advantage over conventional shooting. The virtue of practical shooting is that it is practical, and we must make sure in our rules and regulations that it stays that way. The goals of practical pistolcraft are ACCURACY, POWER, and SPEED, as opposed to the goals of conventional target shooting, which emphasize accuracy only. We must keep our competition realistic, we must keep it diverse, and we must not let it become so overly standardized that it will lose its claim to reality. Within these limits our activity should be as relaxed and varied as possible.
It was agreed that the bylaws of the new organization should lay these matters down clearly so they may be understood by all. On that note, the evening session was adjourned.
19. Present the shooter with a problem and let him approach it with his own normal equipment.

 

[Grelber]

The last post ignored the two questions (why doesn't USPSA advertise proposed changes as well as they advertise approved changes, why is the membership not polled about changes using the existing tool for election voting).

My goal is not umbrage, and I don't like things pointing at one person here because that is not fair, but that response pretty much is exactly my point, it is difficult to see any concern or consideration for thoughts from the rank and file.

 

[jakemartens]

The last post ignored the two questions (why doesn't USPSA advertise proposed changes as well as they advertise approved changes, why is the membership not polled about changes using the existing tool for election voting).

My goal is not umbrage, and I don't like things pointing at one person here because that is not fair, but that response pretty much is exactly my point, it is difficult to see any concern or consideration for thoughts from the rank and file.

About 20% of the membership participates in voting for their president or area directors in any given election cycle.
The agenda for every Board meeting is posted in advance of their meetings on the website, and listed in the announcements. The Area Directors contact information as well as the contact form is listed on the website, which is where most of the communication is received from. The website gets 4 million plus visitors a year, in total not unique. There are probably 200-300 emails weekly that we receive, 80-90% are rules, gear related and match information that are filtered through myself, Troy, Mike, Rick (IT) and the AD’s. The rank and file that are involved and have questions, comments and concerns are vocal and engage the elected leadership and employees.
The agenda as well as each of presentation that took place and the minutes are shared. There are a few things strategic, financial or legal that are done in executive session, but everything is out there.