Training simulation 21 feet in 7 seconds.

[misconfig]

We've all heard that it takes an attacker 7 seconds to reach you from 21 feet. I found this video: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWqQZOyd84o"]YouTube - High Speed Amatuer Pistol Shooting - Sig Sauer p220 .45 ACP[/ame]

 

[shooter521]

1) Despite what the caption says, he's hardly "distracted" - he's looking right at the target!

2) the target takes significantly longer to close the 21ft gap than the Tueller Drill standard of 1.5 seconds... not sure where you heard 7 seconds; that would be a friggin eternity!

3) if the target had been a person armed with a knife, he could/would still have inflicted massive damage to the shooter, who made no attempt to get off the line of attack

This video is, IMO, of minimal instructive value.

 

[henktermaat]

Yeah- he's standing ready waiting for the lunge...

 

[IndyBeerman]

We've all heard that it takes an attacker 7 seconds to reach you from 21 feet.

Looks like 21 feet in 2.75 seconds and he was facing the target, imagine how little time you would have it it was coming from the side or from behind or was not paying attention.

BTW timed my wife walking down the hallway without her knowing it and she walked 31 feet in 7 seconds, and this was just a casual walk.

 

[Chefcook]

I cant find it now but I have seen a demonstration where a man with knife drawn would incapacitate/defeat a man with a pistol holstered before he could draw and fire from 21 feet...

 

[Wabatuckian]

A friend and I used to run these drills on each other (with safe guns of course).

He could rarely draw before I was there.

I could draw and dryfire at his head about 75% of the time. The rest of the time, I either missed, didn't complete the draw before he was there, or put it someplace else on his body.

At that time, and through today, I practice drawing about 100x per night, give or take.

Have a plan to fend off while you're drawing. The gun alone won't do it.

Josh <><

 

[RelicHound]

forgive my ignorance but wouldnt your first reaction be to get some distance between you and the attacker?
I understand the attacker is closing the gap quickly but couldnt you off set that by moving? either moving backwards as fast as you can or to the side...I would think it would atleast buy you enough time to draw your weapon?
it would be easy to practice in your own home..have someone hide in the house{without letting you know where} and start walking your house and when your near the other person can run out and "attack"...sure you know its going to happen but atleast there will be a little surprise to it

 

[HandK]

1) Despite what the caption says, he's hardly "distracted" - he's looking right at the target!

2) the target takes significantly longer to close the 21ft gap than the Tueller Drill standard of 1.5 seconds... not sure where you heard 7 seconds; that would be a friggin eternity!

3) if the target had been a person armed with a knife, he could/would still have inflicted massive damage to the shooter, who made no attempt to get off the line of attack

This video is, IMO, of minimal instructive value.

Shooter521 is right on! 1.5 sec is the rule for 21 feet.

 

[The Meach]

This ios where we need to loose the over dependence on our firearms. I've always been taught the 1.5 second rule. And it is darn near impossible to react, draw, aim, fire, and stop in that amount of time. For this scenario an unarmed physical response a waffle stop to his manhood while you move to disarm would be better than even attempting a draw.

learning hand to hand (or as in my example foot to nuts) is important.

 

[Shay]

I do not believe Tueller intended for his research to become a "rule" and definitely didn't intend for it to become a game that people try to beat. He was justifying LEO shootings that involved people with knives at greater-than-contact distances. Period.

He settled on 21 feet because that was the average distance a normal person could cross in 1.5 seconds. The 1.5 seconds comes from how long it took the average LEO to draw and fire one shot from the holster.

Distraction, momentum, time delay to incapacity, bad hits, outright misses and a host of other factors mean that standing and delivering shots while someone is charging with a knife is a very bad idea. As others have stated, movement and a combination of empty hand techniques and/or multiple shots to vital areas have a much greater chance of success than standing with your feet planted trying to get off that one shot.

All Tueller showed is that attackers with edged or other contact weapon are still dangerous at what some uneducated people might consider a "safe" distance.

 

[Steve MI]

I do not believe Tueller intended for his research to become a "rule" and definitely didn't intend for it to become a game that people try to beat. He was justifying LEO shootings that involved people with knives at greater-than-contact distances. Period.

He settled on 21 feet because that was the average distance a normal person could cross in 1.5 seconds. The 1.5 seconds comes from how long it took the average LEO to draw and fire one shot from the holster.

Distraction, momentum, time delay to incapacity, bad hits, outright misses and a host of other factors mean that standing and delivering shots while someone is charging with a knife is a very bad idea. As others have stated, movement and a combination of empty hand techniques and/or multiple shots to vital areas have a much greater chance of success than standing with your feet planted trying to get off that one shot.

All Tueller showed is that attackers with edged or other contact weapon are still dangerous at what some uneducated people might consider a "safe" distance.

We have a winner .........

 

[Boilers]

forgive my ignorance but wouldnt your first reaction be to get some distance between you and the attacker?
I understand the attacker is closing the gap quickly but couldnt you off set that by moving? either moving backwards as fast as you can or to the side...I would think it would atleast buy you enough time to draw your weapon?
it would be easy to practice in your own home..have someone hide in the house{without letting you know where} and start walking your house and when your near the other person can run out and "attack"...sure you know its going to happen but atleast there will be a little surprise to it

My most likely to draw/fire scenario would be while with my family. And I am not running away from protecting my family.

 

[shooter521]

I am not running away from protecting my family.

No, but you can sure as heck get off the line of attack, which might keep you alive and unperforated long enough to actually protect them...

The "stand and deliver" mentality is bad juju.

 

[Boilers]

cross that bridge when I get to it. Perhaps we should all get segways and scatter?

 

[Bruenor]

1.5 seconds doesn't seem like a lot of time to draw, aim, and fire. Would this be a situation where having a knife, and the skill to use it in a knife-on-knife fight, be appropriate? I would imagine that I could grab a knife out of my belt in 1.5 seconds.

 

[RelicHound]

I would certainly hope you wouldnt run away from protecting your family.
if your with your family and some wack job decides to to attack I would think the attacker will most likely try to take out the biggest threat which would be you...his attention will be on you and if you dont move your likely to get stuck or shot...then will most likely be of no use. best thing to do is teach your family to run the opposite direction of the threat..and keep running no matter what happens to you.

and the segway idea is awesome

 

[RelicHound]

1.5 seconds doesn't seem like a lot of time to draw, aim, and fire. Would this be a situation where having a knife, and the skill to use it in a knife-on-knife fight, be appropriate? I would imagine that I could grab a knife out of my belt in 1.5 seconds.

perhaps..but your leg is longer than any blade you'd be able to carry and Im sure you can deploy that faster than you could pull a knife..and a well placed kick to the groin,head or ribs will likely stop the attacker pretty quick.

 

[HandK]

Shooter521 is not talking about running away! you have two options close and engage! or move to cover and engage, at any rate you do not want to stand and be a target yourself whether it be a knife or a gun the prep has, Most of us have spent our entire life standing in one spot when we are out at the range target shooting, you have trained yourself to stand there and be a target yourself.
You should train to shoot on the move shoot from odd angles seek cover when ever possible,you stand a 50% greater chance of surviving a deadly encounter by not being where you were when the encounter started, you do not have much time in an encounter like this one, My option would be to create a longer reactionary gap to allow me more time to draw and engage the target, continue to move and shoot until the threat does not exists.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

I use the Tueller drill in my basic course (if I have time) only to show the students how far a person can travel before you can realize a threat, draw and get a shot off. The problems Shay metioned also have to be taken into consideration. When the drill is done the person KNOWS they are going to draw. They are not taken by surprise. Never has a student gotten a shot off before I could run 70 feet, and I'm no track star at age 43, 6', 233 lbs.

I use the drill in the context of teaching awareness. Anyone within 100 feet of you could easily be a threat. One only has to watch the Wal Mart security video of that guy in Arkansas running 100 yards across a parking lot and slamming a girl through her car door as she opened it to realize this. She was raped, murdered and dumped that day.

Again, the moral of the lesson is to BE AWARE. Keep your eyes moving!

 

[Wabatuckian]

1.5 seconds doesn't seem like a lot of time to draw, aim, and fire. Would this be a situation where having a knife, and the skill to use it in a knife-on-knife fight, be appropriate? I would imagine that I could grab a knife out of my belt in 1.5 seconds.

Try drawing the pistol against a timer. You might surprise yourself...