Should I have kept my mouth shut ?

[92FSTech]

I don't care who cleared it, or how many times. I still don't want it pointed at me. There are plenty of ways to handle a gun in every shop I've ever been to without pointing it at other people, even if that's just aiming the muzzle at the floor. But, unfortunately the majority of the general public can't be relied upon to properly operate a turn signal, much less a handgun, so this is the crap you're going to get when you have to interact with them.

The counter guy should have known better, though, and instead of snapping at you should have gently explained to her why you objected and guide her towards a safe direction. It's as much his responsibility to educate his customer as a new gun owner as it is to make a sale. I'd probably be done with that shop and go find a place that's not staffed by jerks and doing a better job of furthering responsible gun ownership.

 

[cbhausen]

So much support for three rules instead of four here it makes me smile. Even the four rules folks are espousing three rules.

It doesn’t make a damn bit of difference, whether it’s loaded, whether you think it’s loaded, or whether you are pretending it’s loaded all the time. Keep the mother****ing gun pointed in a safe direction at all times. Or you will hear from me. And I don’t care where we are.

 

[cbhausen]

4-H leaders routinely deal with young teens and pre-teens, constantly instructing and reinforcing that all guns be pointed in a safe direction even unloaded. The sales rep should have given the customer directions on where to point the gun (at empty space behind the counter) and nowhere else. If youth leaders can direct 10-14 year olds, the sales rep can follow suit.

THIS. RIGHT HERE. SPOT-ON.

3 Rules.

Again, I post this link. Stated better than I ever could have:

3 Rules, not 4. Maybe just 2 rules. - Notes from KR

On several of the blogs I read, people often refer to the “4 rules of gun safety” and quote the rules defined by Jeff Cooper of Gunsite. They are All guns are always loaded! Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy! Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights...

blog.krtraining.com

 

[Bollorollo]

This wouldn't happen to be the guy working behind to counter was it? lol

 

[Hookeye]

IMNSHO one will get over gunshop sweeps after a couple visits to a public range.

 

[JTKelly]

I shoot at a gun range on a weekly basis. It's a retail establishment that sells long guns of all types and handguns. I was sitting at a table inside talking with a friend after we were done shooting. As my friend and I were talking I looked up to see a woman handling a pistol she was apparently thinking of buying. The salesman, on the other side of the counter, was with her as well as her husband.

After the third or fourth time of staring down the barrel I politely (at least I think I tried to say it politely) asked the woman if she would please point the gun in another direction - or something to that affect. She gave me a half smile and moved the gun in a different direction. All well and good.

But. . . . . . .after the exchange between the gun buyer and myself the salesman looked at me, spoke up, and said "This is a gun shop. We sell guns. I cleared the gun 3 times myself." My response "Perhaps you did, but I didn't clear it. And, as I remember it, one of the safety rules is to treat all guns as if they are loaded."

His response was "If this makes you nervous maybe you should go outside." I opened my mouth to respond but, instead, removed myself before I said something I might regret later - something I do way too often. . I frequent the business at least 2 times a week on a regular basis and have done so for years. Maybe the salesman was just having a bad day ? Maybe I should have just kept my mouth shut ? Do you say something in a situation like described - or either ignore or relocate without saying anything ?

Move. Like he said, its a gun shop not Dunkin Doughnuts.

 

[Ziggidy]

I agree with you, up until firing the errant employee. Training/retraining should be required at that point. If he declines the training, or fails to follow it, then his job would be at risk. Proper firearms safety is not difficult. The hardest part is remaining ever-vigilant. I've been handling guns for about 60 years. I catch myself every once in a while taking a shortcut because I "know" something. We all KNOW the rules. Know the rules and applying the rules are two different things. We all NEED to help keep each other be as safe as is humanly possible. If someone can't take a friendly reminder, perhaps they should take up bowling, or knitting, instead of shooting.

I agree. I posted that before I had my coffee.

 

[ECS686]

The “except for” rule. Where people think they are exempt from rule 2! It applies to all Except for me I cleared it 3 times or Except for cops (why cops shoot the wrong people)

Some folks think the laws of physics don’t apply to them.

Speak up how many bad things happen because folks don’t speak up?

 

[NHT3]

Aside from the 4 rules which are of the upmost importance there's this.. Idiot salesman missed a great opportunity to educate by preferring to be a smart
a$$. I know muzzle discipline is difficult in gun shops (the floor is always a possibility) but I don't see an exclusion for shops in this little tidbit. I keep the text of this on my phone to remind people that along with being stupid and potentially dangerous it's actually a misdemeanor at the very least if someone wants to press the issue.


https://codes.findlaw.com/in/title-35-criminal-law-and-procedure/in-code-sect-35-47-4-3/

 

[cbhausen]

The “except for” rule. Where people think they are exempt from rule 2! It applies to all Except for me I cleared it 3 times or Except for cops (why cops shoot the wrong people)

Some folks think the laws of physics don’t apply to them.

Speak up how many bad things happen because folks don’t speak up?

People think they are exempt from rule number two because of ridiculous make-believe rule number one.

Rule number one is to ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, it doesn’t matter whether you think it’s loaded, know it’s not loaded, pretend it’s loaded, whatever…

Take loaded or not out of the equation. If it’s intact and looks like it’s capable of launching a projectile it’s a gun and keep it pointed in a safe direction. Look down the barrel if you want after the barrel is disassembled from the rest of the pieces or the bolt is out, etc. because you no longer have a gun at that point.

 

[cbhausen]

Here’s more from a guy we all know who knows what he’s talking about:

 

[ECS686]

People think they are exempt from rule number two because of ridiculous make-believe rule number one.

Rule number one is to ALWAYS keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, it doesn’t matter whether you think it’s loaded, know it’s not loaded, pretend it’s loaded, whatever…

Take loaded or not out of the equation. If it’s intact and looks like it’s capable of launching a projectile it’s a gun and keep it pointed in a safe direction. Look down the barrel if you want after the barrel is disassembled from the rest of the pieces or the bolt is out, etc. because you no longer have a gun at that point.

Smarter dudes than us came up with them. The issue (and we all sort of get there wether we like 1 or 2) is people so rule 1 until they “THINK” it’s unloaded them 1,2 and 3 go out the window. Why TVs and walls get shot every weekend.

It’s also why cops shoot other cops and why several folks have been killed or seriously injured in training

Remember this case? Could have easily happened in a gun store!

Man paralyzed in accidental shooting in the Poconos reaches $5.5 million settlement

Darin McMahon reached a $5.5 million settlement after a firearms instructor shot him in the neck with a Glock during a simulation firearms training.

www.poconorecord.com

 

[Bugzilla]

NRA rule 3 when you carry? Maybe transporting? Define ready to use. Can’t agree with the author’s logic as my questions prove (to me) that his logic also applies to the NRA rules and the NRA rules are not as clear and concise as he feels. The safety sign I have posted in my outdoor range has 9 rules (a bit larger than the one pictured). If you don’t understand the rules applies to guns and guns can be dangerous, maybe you should be buying something else.

 

[ECS686]

NRA rule 3 when you carry? Maybe transporting? Define ready to use. Can’t agree with the author’s logic as my questions prove (to me) that his logic also applies to the NRA rules and the NRA rules are not as clear and concise as he feels. The safety sign I have posted in my outdoor range has 9 rules (a bit larger than the one pictured). If you don’t understand the rules applies to guns and guns can be dangerous, maybe you should be buying something else.
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Meaning this respectfully there are the “4” basic rules of firearms safety which deal with handiling at the time in general

Then there are those in your list which while spot on and great rules to follow are more of something you’d learn in a class in the part where folks should learn owning and using a firearm is a lifestyle and not like having a fire extinguisher under your sink!

Most folks attention span is good to do 4 rules without issue

 

[Creedmoor]

 

[Robert Richardson]

Too damn much drama in this world today.

 

[92FSTech]

Are we really arguing about this? Three or four rules...who cares? It's the real world, not an English classroom. Engage your mind, use common sense. Guns are inherently dangerous. They make holes in stuff. Don't point them at stuff you don't want to put holes in, and don't touch the bangy bits until you're ready to make holes in stuff. If you can't extrapolate the rest from those basic concepts on your own (or with a little basic instruction), you probably shouldn't be playing with guns.

 

[JTKelly]

You want to see 90% of this thread flip flop and start posting "except for", what if, and well do you?

What if he lives in a crowded apartment complex and can't get to a range to practice? Can he dry fire his "loaded" gun at the TV a thousand times? At the wall? At the floor? At his door? What if he sets a dime on the sights is it safe enough now or puts a little rubber thing in it? Then can he walk around safely pulling the trigger on the other side of a chalk board wall from where you live?

May be if he is really careful, right?

 

[actaeon277]

Me to the salesman.

Well, I've checked my pistol is unloaded.
Can I point it at you?

 

[Michigan Slim]

I was in a gun shop in New Haven one day and a guy walked in with an old cap and ball pistol. 1860, I believe. Wanted to sell it. The second time I asked him to point the thing another direction, I was NOT nice. He, of course, said it was only a muzzleloader. Had two loaded cylinders when the owner looked at it. He was asked to get the he!! out. Miss that shop.