Seriously?

[dburkhead]

Firstly, I didn't open that link you're referring to.

Context is everything. My comments were in the context of that article which was claiming that humans are "naturally" herbivores.

Then they aren't consuming folic acid, which helps the absorbtion much like vitamin C and iron.

Or maybe not everyone gets the same value from the same food sources as others. It's not as simple as some would have you think.

I'm not disputing that most foods/drinks are fortified. That wasn't the point.

Actually my point was that these were the sources listed on vegetarian/vegan sites as sources for B12. Nobody was saying "just eat a balanced diet." Instead specific "fixes" for this issue were considered necessary.

There are bad vegetarian/vegan diets just as their are bad omnivorous diets. I'd say a steady diet of McLunch and Pizza suppers need a supplement just as much as a pasta/potato vegetarian's diet.

However an fairly simply "balanced [omnivorous] diet" can provide all the essential nutrients in the required amounts. It's not so simple when one eliminates animal products to the "vegan" level.

It's already been mentioned that complete proteins are absolutely found in non-meat sources, so that doesn't need revisited.

However unless you want to postulate that humans are the dietary equivalent of koalas--only evolved to eat certain specific plants--these handful of sources really don't invalidate the point. You can't just let humans graze in the field, or even self-select from among plant sources (only), and expect them to come up with a diet that provides sufficient quantities of the essential amino acids.

I'll just stick to your B12 comments. B12 is a sythesized bacterium and actually comes from the dirt. That's how animals get it (from eating dirt that's on the grass/plants/etc.).

And how much dirt does one have to eat to get sufficient B12 (2.8 micrograms daily for adult men and women--2.8 for pregnant or lactating)?

We don't get it much in the same way because we wash the dirt off of produce, but even so we create a small amount in our intestines.

How much is a "small amount"?

It's found not only in the nutritional yeast you mentioned, but in root vegetables, legumes, and produce that was grown by adding cobalt to the growing area.

"By adding cobalt to the area." Another nail in that "humans are natural herbivores" coffin.

And how much. Amounts from animal products that I've seen range from .1 micrograms per ounce for chicken to 32 micrograms per ounce for beef liver. I have not been able to find any of the ones you name above even listed.

Other sources are sea kelp, mushrooms, and fermented products (like soya, tempeh, miso, shoyu, etc.).

Again, how much?

Looking just at sea kelp (as one example) lots of sites say it has B12, but none of them say how much. Just how much sea kelp would you have to eat to get the required amount of B12?

Personally, my family and I take multivitamins anyway, but we did that way before becoming vegetarian or vegan.
A B12 deficiency would be a LENGTHY process of a decade or more.

I guess it would depend on whether you plan on living long enough for it to be an issue. Or, more specifically, if our ancestors who were supposed (per the article to which I was referring uptopic) to be "natural herbivores" would need.

Also, how does that work for growing children? Something that can take a long time to produce significant problems in an adult can often produce serious problems much more quickly in a child. And the problems in a child can often be permanent since growth/building that never happens can never be recovered once the active ages have passed.

Your daily requirement is about 2 or 3 micrograms per day (not milligrams)

Meaningless except in comparison to the amounts available.

and since B12 is stored in your kidneys, your liver, and your muscle tissue it's reabsorbed by your body instead of being excreted.

If true (not going to bother to check and am willing to stipulate it for the time being) that's part of the reason that the requirement is so low. No "store, dust off, and reuse" system is going to be 100% perfect. There will be losses and those losses have to be recovered.

My point remains, humans are not natural herbivores. They can fake it given proper care and attention to making sure all the fiddly bits go together right (modern society is a big help for that), but it is not the natural state of mankind and never has been.

 

[JetGirl]

In answer to your many "how much? how much?" questions, I can only say that I'm not a nutritionist and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night... so I really don't know specific numbers, but I surely wasn't suggesting eating dirt.

As far as the reason that cobalt is added, it wouldn't have to be if there weren't so many herbicides killing off the natural bacteria...at least that's my understanding. Again, never really studied the reasoning in depth. It would seem that the more we futz with nature, the more we have to fix what we did.

In answer to the long term affects of a B12 deficiency, my comments were implying absolutely no B12 intake at all. Not referring to the fact any amounts (no matter how small) are ingested daily. That would probably make it even longer.

You stated that your point remains that humans are not natural herbivores. I respect your opinion, but not knowing your position on creation vs. evolution, I really can't go farther with that part of the discussion.

Thanks for the great conversation, by the way.

 

[dburkhead]

In answer to your many "how much? how much?" questions, I can only say that I'm not a nutritionist and I did not stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night... so I really don't know specific numbers, but I surely wasn't suggesting eating dirt.

Well there's the $64 question, isn't it. I actually did spend some time looking for numbers before posing the questions to you. Although I can be subject to blind spots in my google-fu just like anyone else, I'm usually pretty good at finding out what I want to know. I could find nothing on the amounts in plant products. I have to wonder if its anything other than a "trace" (and that's relative to the required amount).

As for "eating dirt" since several of the vegetarian/vegan sites I hit in the course of looking this stuff up spent considerable time bemoaning that we've largely stopped doing just that, one has to wonder.

As far as the reason that cobalt is added, it wouldn't have to be if there weren't so many herbicides killing off the natural bacteria...at least that's my understanding.

That has not been a reason that I saw sited. The main reason for adding cobalt is pretty simple: the makeup of the B12 vitamin includes cobalt. No cobalt, no B12. Bacteria can do a lot of things but transmuting elements is not among them.

Bacteria also are pretty hardy. It's hard to kill them actually which is why so much effort goes into research of ways to actually kill them. And if you don't do a complete job, they just come back resistant to the method you used to attempt to kill them with in the first place (one of the reasons to be careful with antibiotics--don't use them unless you actually have a bacterial infection to deal with and make sure to finish the job when you do use them).

This "herbicides leaching out the natural bacteria just doesn't pass the smell test.

Again, never really studied the reasoning in depth. It would seem that the more we futz with nature, the more we have to fix what we did.

Actually, I think Hobbes was an optimist. (Thomas Hobbes: "Life, in the state of nature, is solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short.")

Some people feel nostalgic about a "simpler" life. I, personally, preferred to watch my kids grow up secure in the knowledge that they were actually likely to reach their fifth birthday, let alone adulthood, and my wife is extremely unlikely to die in "childbed fever" and will instead be with me for years to come.

In answer to the long term affects of a B12 deficiency, my comments were implying absolutely no B12 intake at all. Not referring to the fact any amounts (no matter how small) are ingested daily. That would probably make it even longer.

You stated that your point remains that humans are not natural herbivores. I respect your opinion, but not knowing your position on creation vs. evolution, I really can't go farther with that part of the discussion.

I take the scientific position.

Thanks for the great conversation, by the way.

One of the things that I learned early on is that you can disagree with people and still be friends.

 

[Benny]

Somebody really, really likes to argue.

 

[JetGirl]

Somebody really, really likes to argue.

Me?

Don't mean to come across that way.
Just trying to explain my personal choices without trying to sound too defensive while doing so. I'm not really an advocate and you'll never hear me saying "you should do [insert whatever]." To each their own.
Personally, I'm really a "live and let live" type. People can think (and do) whatever they want, so long as it doesn't infringe or encroach.
But I do appreciate a lively discussion.

 

[causerofwait]

I think bazooka was referring to dburkhead. Correct me if I'm wrong bazooka. I think he (dburkhead) might be a lawyer; correct me if I'm wrong dburkhead.

 

[dburkhead]

I think bazooka was referring to dburkhead. Correct me if I'm wrong bazooka. I think he (dburkhead) might be a lawyer; correct me if I'm wrong dburkhead.

You are wrong (on the second point--can't speak to the first). I'm not a lawyer. I'm a scientist.