Search by Conservation Officer?

[amboy49]

One of the questions that came to mind was how was it that the C.O. "noticed" a trowel in your car. ? Was he casually walking by and it was so apparent or did he deliberately stop and make a specific visual search of the car's contents that were visible ?

Sorry, but this whole subject speaks of over reach of authority by the C.O. Sorry to say this doesn't surprise me as I have personally experienced this type of heavy handed action.

 

[1861navy]

Last I checked, it was illegal to hunt ginseng on state property. This is due to over harvesting to the point where its almost extirpated on state grounds. Having talked to many ICOs ginseng theft is one of the hardest crimes to prosecute. It is regularly stolen off private property. I have had two patches that I planted on my property taken and I know others that have had their 'seng stolen. I know of at least one church-going ginseng hunter that doesn't see an issue with sneaking into "unused" woods to hunt ginseng in Kentucky. It is big money. One case here in Indiana, the guy was caught with $6,000 worth drying in his house, all of which came from his neighbors property, and that was just what he had at the time. Imagine what he had stolen over the years.
Imagine what it looked like to the ICO. You had a bag, in the woods, with a trowel. No criminal is going to be honest and say, yes I was digging 'seng. They are always going to say they are doing something else. I would fully expect the ICO to search you.

Of course I had a bag, it mainly had gear I would use if I got lost temporarily. Carrying a bag in a place where all kinds of other people have bags isn't anywhere enough to jump to that conclusion.

A trowel, which again I will add is recommended by IDNR while hiking,etc. to bury feces, many hikers carry them as well as bags.

Amboy: he had to have stopped deliberately for some reason to see the trowel. No other way he would have seen it.

 

[churchmouse]

Of course I had a bag, it mainly had gear I would use if I got lost temporarily. Carrying a bag in a place where all kinds of other people have bags isn't anywhere enough to jump to that conclusion.

A trowel, which again I will add is recommended by IDNR while hiking,etc. to bury feces, many hikers carry them as well as bags.

Amboy: he had to have stopped deliberately for some reason to see the trowel. No other way he would have seen it.

He was looking for a score. No more/no less. Trolling.

 

[AGarbers]

Rep for you!

This is nuts. Why don't people just grow their own if it is legal?

Crazy world.

Someone else may have already addressed this, but here it is again if so.

Ginseng is very picky on where it grows. It likes well-drained soil and 75 percent shade. It takes eight to ten years for a plant to mature enough to be worth harvesting, so it is a long-term investment to grow.

Wild-grown, the most sought after and valuable 'seng, is the most compact and ringed of roots. It is wild and has not been given any assistance such as cultivation or fertilizer. The struggle to survive in the wild is easy to see on the root.

Woods-grown is 'seng that has been cultivated and helped along, but still uses the forest's natural canopy to give it the proper amount of sunlight. The roots are bigger but less valuable. Any experienced buyer will know the difference.

Cultivated 'seng is grown under special 75% shade cloth in garden beds. Those farms that I knew of just grew the 'seng for a few years and gave it everything it needed to grow big and fast. After three to five years it was harvested and made into the drinks, pills, and other concoctions you see for sale.

Many things limit making money. First, every critter loves 'seng from chipmunks to deer, and will destroy a patch. Second, 'seng poisons the soil it is in. It puts out some sort of compound the keeps other 'seng from growing. (Sorry, I'm I don't have the energy to dig out my books to tell you what it is exactly.) In a natural environment, this isn't a big deal because the plants are not concentrated enough to make a difference. In a cultivated setting, after a few generations of plants, the soil is useless to further 'seng cultivation. Third, it is very picky about the amount of sunlight or water it gets. Too much sunlight or water will kill it. Loosing one tree over a patch of woods grown 'seng can change the amount of sunlight and kill all the exposed plants. Forth, 'seng is very susceptible to natural issues such as disease and insects. I knew a fellow that lost an entire crop from disease and he had many years invested in to get nothing.

The biggest issue is theft and greed. Since it grows best in areas that see little human traffic, it is very easy to steal. ICOs have a hard time enforcing laws governing digging because they basically have to catch you in the process of digging it. It's not like there's serial numbers on the roots.

As the prices climb it becomes even worse. I knew a fellow that did a woods-grown plot and mothered over it for ten years. The plot was within view of his house and on his property. The week before he was going to harvest it, someone came in and stole it all. I think it was in the neighborhood of $10Ks worth. I have planted seed on three different properties and have not gotten one root for my troubles and investment. People that would never think of stealing your wallet have no issue with coming on your property and digging root. Next time you talk to someone who digs root, ask them who owns the property. I bet they can't answer that. It's just like deer poaching.

Another operation I knew of did several acres of full under shade cloth cultivation. They had to fence the area and allow guard dogs to run loose inside, otherwise thieves would sneak in at night and rob them blind.

I'll get down off my soapbox now. At this point, growing 'seng for me is like paying 100 percent Capitol gains tax. I do all the work and get nothing back...

 

[littletommy]

So, I haven't read every sentence of every reply, and maybe it's been asked, but how the hell was OP digging in the woods with a trowel that was locked in his vehicle? Seems like quite a stretch for the officer to connect the two. Yeah, I'm gonna go with the officer trolling.

 

[freekforge]

The way co searches were explained to me was if you have a license you already gave consent and if you dont have one and they think you are doing whatever you need that license for they dont need consent. Never made much sense to me but i dont come up with this stuff

And just because he asks for consent doesn't mean he doesn't already have pc. When i was working a certain job where i had the legal authority to search people and belongings with consent or pc i always asked first even if i didn't need to.

Me: can i search your bag
Them: no this aint nazi germany blah blah blah obama blah
Me: thats cool im still searching it i just didn't want to be a jerk

 

[Zoub]

One of the questions that came to mind was how was it that the C.O. "noticed" a trowel in your car. ? Was he casually walking by and it was so apparent or did he deliberately stop and make a specific visual search of the car's contents that were visible ?

Sorry, but this whole subject speaks of over reach of authority by the C.O. Sorry to say this doesn't surprise me as I have personally experienced this type of heavy handed action.

30+ years ago while in pursuit of the world's largest Whitetail on family property, I see the deer coming.......and then he bolts. Next here come some DNR guys. I sit tight, I am staying in the hunt. I am thinking WTF but maybe they are looking for someone from the county property next to us. They don't see me, damn near step on me. I move a bit, here come more and then more! They set up in various positions, I am in the middle of something here. I wait until dark, easy to track them with the red crystals on top of their old Motorola "brick" radios. I slip out and down to the river to my truck, time to head home to eat. This was a deer hunt on my way home from college. I get to my truck and there is a local cop and close family friend. I ask why all those dimwits are up there ruining my hunt. Who are they looking for?

He says: "they are looking for you. They think you might be hunting deer with a handgun. I heard all the chatter on the radio so I drove over here where I knew your truck would be. They saw a handgun box on your truck floor."

So he and I clear it up in 30 seconds, then walk over to my truck. On the floor was my bright yellow Ruger cardboard box from my MKII. Very sturdy box, I used it to store small items under the seat of my C10. Then he sets out to have some fun and needle the DNR chaps. He radios them that he and I are at my truck. They are in total disbelief it is me and want to come see me. There is no way I got past all of them. Cop friend just keeps jabbing them on the radio.

All of this over a Ruger label on a box. I had years and years of E&E training as a kid but that day the new rule was out of sight, out of mind for vehicle contents.

As for any questions asked by any LEO that involves you giving consent or giving personal details the answer is always no. If they threaten you with a ride downtiwn to jail, fine take the ride. If they threaten you with warrants and subpoenas, fine have them do it. Any good attorney will tell you that. Don't be rude, a dick or uncooperative, help when you can. If their questions are about you, shut up.

 

[Zoub]

The biggest issue is theft and greed....

First rule of Ginseng club, never talk about Ginseng club.

 

[seedubs1]

Heavy handed????? Definitely not.

He looked into the OP's car. Any CO or LEO does that. If it's in plain view, they're going to look.

Then he ASKED for the OP's permission to search him and his vehicle. The OP gave his permission.

That is NOT heavy handed. Not at all. I'd be surprised if the CO DIDN'T ask.

What would be heavy handed (in this case) would be if the CO searched without consent of the OP.

One of the questions that came to mind was how was it that the C.O. "noticed" a trowel in your car. ? Was he casually walking by and it was so apparent or did he deliberately stop and make a specific visual search of the car's contents that were visible ?

Sorry, but this whole subject speaks of over reach of authority by the C.O. Sorry to say this doesn't surprise me as I have personally experienced this type of heavy handed action.

 

[amboy49]

Heavy handed????? Definitely not.

He looked into the OP's car. Any CO or LEO does that. If it's in plain view, they're going to look.

Then he ASKED for the OP's permission to search him and his vehicle. The OP gave his permission.

That is NOT heavy handed. Not at all. I'd be surprised if the CO DIDN'T ask.

What would be heavy handed (in this case) would be if the CO searched without consent of the OP.

Guess we'll actually never know what would have happened if the OP had refused to grant permission for the search(s). From reading the previous posts there seems to be a divergence of opinion on whether the CO could have gone ahead and searched WITHOUT permission.

From more than a few anecdotal incidents I can state that although conservation officers do often provide a valuable service, like any other law enforcement agency there are those who abuse their authority AND presume everyone is guilty until proven innocent.

I reread the original post and wondered what if the CO had found something else in the OP's car ? Forgotten roach, something left in the car by a friend that he had no knowledge of, anything that could have resulted the CO being able to press charges for any number of violations.

Too often I've seen law enforcement officers use the "Well, if you don't have anything to hide you won't mind if I search your (fill in the blank)." And then things go down hill pretty quickly thereafter. For most people I think it is easy to either be too cooperative or too intimidated when being pressured - whether in a friendly manner or threatened with some type of prosecutorial action.

Its easy for all/any of us to puff up and say we would flatly refuse to allow a search - in reality how many would knuckle under when law enforcement starts to reach for the handcuffs if you don't "comply."