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Question on engraving an SBR
- Thread starter JosephR
- Start date
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Gun should be marked once the form1 is approved.
If the gun is an AR, I will have the lower engraved before I even send the form1 off.
Also, if you just engrave the "upper" and the SBR is an AR based gun, you will have to engrave ALL the uppers you plan on using on it. Now if the gun isn't an AR type system engrave it anywhere, but it still should be either prior to form1 approval OR immediately after approval.
My
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If the gun is an AR, I will have the lower engraved before I even send the form1 off.
Also, if you just engrave the "upper" and the SBR is an AR based gun, you will have to engrave ALL the uppers you plan on using on it. Now if the gun isn't an AR type system engrave it anywhere, but it still should be either prior to form1 approval OR immediately after approval.
My
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CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
This is commical. I almost could've predicted this out of you Joe. As big craig said on the first line, after approval is ok. Just what I thought. Anymore questions you want to ask and prove yourself wrong on?
I think you only read what you want to see.
Yes, he did say that he personally engraves beforehand, but he never said it had to be done beforehand.
I think you only read what you want to see.
Yes, he did say that he personally engraves beforehand, but he never said it had to be done beforehand.
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lol
Well, the SMART action would be to have the engraving done BEFORE you even send the form1 off, that way if the engraver screws it up you still have the ability to remedy the situation before the lower is in the NFA registry.
I would atleast have the engraving done before you bust its cherry.
Well, the SMART action would be to have the engraving done BEFORE you even send the form1 off, that way if the engraver screws it up you still have the ability to remedy the situation before the lower is in the NFA registry.
I would atleast have the engraving done before you bust its cherry.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Is this a statement or a question?
Are we moving discussion over here?
You, as a trustee can act on behalf of the trust to manufacture an SBR from a receiver owned by the trust (not you individually because there is a difference so it needs to be shown on the schedule A as title I prior to making). You cannot take a receiver that you own individually, get approval for the trust to make the SBR, then build it, then transfer to the trust. That would require two taxes and two approvals one for you to make it and one for you to transfer it to the trust. There is no way to distinguish the difference between these two scenarios by the actual physical making. Therefore, the proper way, according to David Goldman and confirmed by the ATF when I called, is to add the title I to the schedule A proving that is was already owned by the trust before it was manufactured (by you, on behalf of the trust) into an SBR.
Regarding the engraving comment, I didn't say you HAD to do it after approval. I said that you could do it after approval prior to assembling the receiver. You were saying that you had to do it before approval otherwise you were in possession of an illegal SBR (even if no barrel was installed)
I am not going to comment on the trust issue, well, because, I know very little about it.
Just remember, once your form1 is approved the lower IS an SBR, upper installed or not installed, it doesn't matter, the lower is now a title II item that you made, so it must be marked. Now, are you going to get in to trouble for owning an unmarked registered lower, more than likely not, as 99.9% of LEOs have no clue about NFA regs.
Again, you can either get the engraving done BEFORE submitting the form1, this is the smart way to go, or get it done immediatley after getting a approved form1. It really is that simple.
Hoosier Gun Coat
Expert
I've been looking for an excuse to buy a lase engraver. So many out there, not sure what to buy.
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
If you do, make sure it can engrave to ATF depth regs (most laser engravers won't, they only burn the coating off most metals).
If you do get one, let me know and I'll be a frequent customer of yours!
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Hmmm... seems this is either a true coincidence, or somebody from here went over to arfcom for some clarification. Joe, you may want to take a look at this thread At what exact point is it an SBR? Form 1 approval or mating to short-barrel upper? - AR15.COM
What do you mean "coincidence"?
I can't check that link from work.
It is an SBR upon approval.
Like I said before, putting a short upper on an unregistered lower makes it an illegal SBR.
A legal SBR is created as soon as the item enters the registry and must be engraved accordingly. The ATF knows you won't know the exact time it does so they will give you a little leeway (as in engraving it when you get your paperwork) but technically it's an SBR when the form clears.
Was that specifically asked over on BARF or did someone simply ask if putting a short upper on a lower makes an SBR?
I still have an SBR even if I strip my lower completely. You want to argue that too?
I can't check that link from work.
It is an SBR upon approval.
Like I said before, putting a short upper on an unregistered lower makes it an illegal SBR.
A legal SBR is created as soon as the item enters the registry and must be engraved accordingly. The ATF knows you won't know the exact time it does so they will give you a little leeway (as in engraving it when you get your paperwork) but technically it's an SBR when the form clears.
Was that specifically asked over on BARF or did someone simply ask if putting a short upper on a lower makes an SBR?
I still have an SBR even if I strip my lower completely. You want to argue that too?
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
By coincidence I mean that somebody, truly independent of this conversation, who has never seen it before, was genuinely wondering the exact same thing we've been arguing about and they asked it on arfcom.
Or somebody who has seen this convo asked it, which wouldn't be a coincidence.
You should probably stop the spewage from your mouth until you can check that link. That was specifically asked on arfcom yesterday and there is cited references from the ATF in there stating that it is not considered an SBR until the first time it is manufactured as one (in the case of an AR, the first time it is assembled as an SBR). It is cited that (as I thought before) if you never assembled it as an SBR, you can submit a letter to the ATF AFTER approval stating that it was never manufactured and they will remove it from the registry and refund your $200.
No, you cannot disassemble your SBR if it has already been manufactured and say that it is no longer one. Well, actually you could if you submitted in writing to the ATF that it is no longer in that configuration and you want it removed from the registry. But because it has already been assembled as an SBR, you will forfeit the making tax. If you have not assembled it yet, you could do just as I described above and it isn't an SBR and never has been.
Wow they sure like to "change" this crap every 6 months by making "clarifications"...
A year or more ago it was always held as "when the stamp is affixed".
Thanks for the knowledge. It seems my info is no longer correct.
F* it. I'm not going to bother making any more SBRs!
You're the dude that graduated from Rose right?
A year or more ago it was always held as "when the stamp is affixed".
Thanks for the knowledge. It seems my info is no longer correct.
F* it. I'm not going to bother making any more SBRs!
You're the dude that graduated from Rose right?
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Yes, is that relevant?
CountryBoy19
Grandmaster
Don't be embarrassed. I've been where you are, on that side of the fence before. I think this is just a case of two similar personalities clashing. I, like you, often don't back down easily, and it is really hard to be a man and admit it when you finally realize when you're wrong; I admire that in you.
Sorry I was so harsh about some things.
I agree with the ATF stuff, it is ridiculous just trying to keep with it all; all the changes and stuff. They're worse than a flip-flopping political candidate.
Glad to hear to graduated from Rose. I was a bit defensive about that because my first thought was "this guy is so mad he's going to try to track me down and argue it out in person" in which case I probably wouldn't have been so stern, its pretty easy to hide behind the mask of the internet.
Can we just chock all of this up to "ATF and their never-ending, confusing, rulings" and two people that refuse to back down when they believe they're right?
No, didn't graduate. One year was enough. The crazy studying I never needed to do in HS, the new girlfriend, the Delta Sigs, the drinking, etc. Way too much for me. Too many geeky tards on Deming 1 with me.
I had to escape. I would have been class of '99.
Love the city, hated the class life. First year of laptops, first year of girls...
No, I wouldn't hunt anyone down and I would hope noone else would but you might get a "you're a 22 year old punk" from some people.
I'm NOT 62 like my profile says. I selected 46 instead of 76 as yob!
I had to escape. I would have been class of '99.
Love the city, hated the class life. First year of laptops, first year of girls...
No, I wouldn't hunt anyone down and I would hope noone else would but you might get a "you're a 22 year old punk" from some people.
I'm NOT 62 like my profile says. I selected 46 instead of 76 as yob!
