People who carry live in a dream world

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  • Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    The key difference between the setup of the video and most real life shooting is that the video scenario is an assassination of a specific individual. It's hard to defend against that, especially if you are forced to sit in a room and wait for it to happen.

    Had an argument (more of a discourse) with a co-worker (yeah, that's productive) about how he was gassing on and on about how student's carrying on campus could have stopped the Purdue shooting (refuse to call it a school shooting). I explained to him that a directed, aimed and otherwise fire and forget mindset of the killer would have not been deterred by someone carrying but also would not have allowed the carrier to shoot or detain the killer in time. I took some serious heat, despite me being pro-carry on campus.


    Cobber:
    There is an important lesson from the video: We may not be targeted, but let's say we're the first to be shot at. Doesn't matter if I'm carrying a Salient Arms RMR equipped G17 with 15 magazines strapped to my stomach competition style, in a surrender position, ready to engage. They got a bead, they have the initiative. Some people live in the "dream world" that having a gun will deflect anything, will prevent anything, and that engagements are the Galco ad portayals. I got into a knife fight during college. I got cut a bit. Shooting can very well be the same thing. The best we can do is stay out of a fight and training is important (situational awareness), but pure statistics is the most powerful (changes of being killed by gunfire are 1 in ???). But if things DO happen (and they are becoming more and more prevalent in a society awash with firearms from two panics and decades of inexpensive mass production, coupled with an unmanageable mental illness problem in the US), and they are getting worse, we need to understand that we can lose. We might have the best, the easiest to use weapons on the planet, and we can still lose in a fight if the attacker has initiative, if they are determined and if they have nothing to lose (and they often do).

    I'm not going to say the video was revolutionary, it was insightful but in terms of our reaction to it as an industry and as a society of those willing to be armed. Remember when this first came out on news sites? Ever read the discussion comments at the bottom? They were the most chest thumping, "my handgun is a talisman, not a turkey" mindset drivel that one could imagine. "I would have put a .45 in the ****er's skull before he could have shot me!!" It's the Taurus Judge crowd rampaging about how they could stop the gunman with birdshot, holding their pistol in a perfect weaver stance, smoke drifting from the barrel, scantily clad woman cowering near their feet. I understand, we don't want to see a loss, in any form. But this video is a wake up call: It not only shows us what our competition (politically) feels, but also how we have failed. We have explained to people that self defense is as simple as pulling a gun on a knife wielding attacker who is 10 meters away and fuzzy looking in the ad, close up of course on the Kimber CDP and the Galco Avenger that it's residing in. It's not. We need to covey the image that despite our triumphs, the good guys CAN and DO lose. The white hats get shot in the belly and fall to the side in the western, just like the black hats. We can be shot, even killed just as easily as the attackers. It's a numbers game, it's a game of survival. But it's not a game that technology can win for us, as the firearms industry tried to shove down our throats, buy this ammo or this gun and "OWN THE NIGHT!!!1!!1!!". It's not Gran Tursimo, where if you somehow cheat the game to get a million bucks, that the raw horsepower of the Suzuki Escudo wins all races and makes up for lack of talent. It takes training.

    I think of it as a "respect for the enemy" thing. I hate the attacker, I loathe their existence and want them destroyed if they threaten me or mine. But I will not conform to the idea that the world is 50/50, black and white, cut and dried. It's not win or lose, the "winner" is the one who is still ALIVE after the event has occurred. Depending on ME, not the tech on my hip. What makes ME have a higher number in the game of survivability? Training. But all that knowledge, countless years of dryfire and livefire practice and my experience in two muggings can be splattered on the passenger side of my car window during a car jacking just as easily as anything else. Think about the spin gun holders during the 50-early 80s. They had lead round nose, MAYBE hollowpoints or SWC, not super effective. They lived and died by their training and themselves as a person. We've drifted from that. Give 'em a laser, you don't have to be a good shooter with those! Idiocy. Here, buy a Taurus Judge, you don't even have to aim it, it's a shotgun! Foolishness at best. We offer options that should be force multipliers, not understanding that if the barebones basic training isn't there, they add squat.
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    93,511
    113
    Merrillville
    The dream world for me, is that if it increases my chances of living 5%, then that's better than not having the 5%.

    And, I'm not sitting in a room listening to gunfire sweep through room after room, getting closer to me.

    Chance are, there will not be a shooting.
    But, chances are, if there is a shooting, statistically speaking, it will be in another room.
     

    Disposable Heart

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 99.6%
    246   1   1
    Apr 18, 2008
    5,805
    99
    Greenfield, IN
    The dream world for me, is that if it increases my chances of living 5%, then that's better than not having the 5%.

    And, I'm not sitting in a room listening to gunfire sweep through room after room, getting closer to me.

    Chance are, there will not be a shooting.
    But, chances are, if there is a shooting, statistically speaking, it will be in another room.

    Go out fighting or just go out. It's all our decision. You've made the survival decision, the YOU decision. You're human, unlike an increasingly vast majority of the American people...
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    93,511
    113
    Merrillville
    Go out fighting or just go out. It's all our decision. You've made the survival decision, the YOU decision. You're human, unlike an increasingly vast majority of the American people...

    die-in-a-pile-of-brass-t-shirt-2.gif
     

    tlfuller27

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Mar 19, 2012
    51
    6
    Nappanee,IN
    i agree it is my right and I tend to exercise it but back to this video it's biased they need to bring someone in who didn't know who was carrying and why was it always the person in front row almost center?
     

    The Bubba Effect

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 13, 2010
    6,221
    113
    High Rockies
    My teacher showed us this video today in class. She stopped it around 3 minutes in. I came home and looked up the rest because I was curious. Now I want to say that I believe she is a supporter in the 2nd amendment, she just showed us this to prove that we should do our own research before we draw conclusions and then asked us if there was any flaws in the research.

    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s&desktop_uri=/watch?v=8QjZY3WiO9s


    The reason she showed your class this video was to show how research can be intentionally skewed to get the "right" answers? That's pretty clever of the teacher. How much of your class got the lesson?

    As to this being posted before, it has, but I have not seen your teacher's take on it before. That's interesting.
     

    actaeon277

    Grandmaster
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    4   0   0
    Nov 20, 2011
    93,511
    113
    Merrillville
    The reason she showed your class this video was to show how research can be intentionally skewed to get the "right" answers? That's pretty clever of the teacher. How much of your class got the lesson?

    As to this being posted before, it has, but I have not seen your teacher's take on it before. That's interesting.

    Somewhere is the full video, or the video in multi-parts.
    Shows a student winning.
     

    Bunnykid68

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    22   0   0
    Mar 2, 2010
    23,515
    83
    Cave of Caerbannog
    I'd love to be in one of those set ups. I would talk to everyone and get them to pass the gun down a few people so that that person could shoot the person coming thru the door
     

    The Bubba Effect

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    19   0   0
    May 13, 2010
    6,221
    113
    High Rockies
    i agree it is my right and I tend to exercise it but back to this video it's biased they need to bring someone in who didn't know who was carrying and why was it always the person in front row almost center?

    Or it's something we need to accept as armed people. We might get shot, we might get shot first. We might even get killed. Even if we are shot, we need to fight. Especially if we are shot. If you are bleeding and only have three seconds worth of blood left in your body, how are you going to live the rest of your life? How about spending it saving your classmates?
     

    Bfish

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    13   0   0
    Feb 24, 2013
    5,801
    48
    I saw someone said this, but the guy coming in the room knows where the person "armed citizen is" and knows that there is an armed citizen much less their location.

    How does that not clearly make this one-sided? Each time they do it they are in the same place its an unarguable flaw in the "evidence"

    *edit* I did not watch the video, because I have seen the full version if this is not. It clearly looks skewed when watching it for reasons above.
     

    bingley

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 11, 2011
    2,295
    48

    I agree with most of what the gun instructor in the video has to say (or what the reporter says he says). That's not from my modest firearm experience, but from doing martial arts for decades. You need constant training. You need realistic training. You need training under stress. You are the real weapon, not the tool you hold in your hand. Assume whatever attack you encounter is from someone who is a better fighter than you, who is better armed than you, who has planned the attack thoroughly, and who is better prepared than you. Now, try and survive.

    I feel nearly all the firearm training that we as civilians typically get is inadequate because of the lack of repetition, the lack of continuous instruction, etc. You don't get to build the physical skills under the instructor's supervision. You may be able to build the physical skills yourself if you're a really good learner. However, it's going to hard to build the mental component on your own. I notice that some of my classmates in gun classes do poorly when stressed. I, on the other hand, am affected nowhere nearly as much, and I credit martial arts training where I have to deal with realistic attacks regularly. (In fact, I seem to do better under stress, but that may be just skewed perception.)

    Set high standards for ourselves!
     

    zippy23

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    27   0   0
    May 20, 2012
    1,815
    63
    Noblesville
    Love how a media outlet has a staged example with professionals showing ametures with really large baggy shirts on, a mask which they would never wear, and gloves on, then a dude comes in the room knowing who has the gun and shoots him within 5 seconds. Theres your proof!!! what a load of crap.
     
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