"Our Lefty Military"

[lumpy39us]

There is one major difference, major difference.
Active forces,
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
National Guard,
I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States and the State of (STATE NAME) against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the Governor of (STATE NAME) and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to law and regulations. So help me God.
As you can see the first and most important role is to support and defend the CONSTITUTION, how many lefties will do that?
Every elected official and LEO has also sworn to support and defend first the CONSTITUTION.
Big difference!

 

[Pocketman]

Having read the article and this thread, I am at a loss concerning what this is all about. For thousands of years, armies have been hierarchical institutions through necessity. That's how it is. I find it just plain baffling for someone to think this could be a model for a socialist society. The military's mission is very narrow compared to society's. Sure, there are infrastructures and human service to maintain, but that's true of any large corporation.

Baron Steuben, who literally wrote the book on U.S. military discipline, observed that American soldiers would ask why when given a task. He concluded that once given an explanation, they would do what they were told and share responsibility for the outcome. This is even today unique among most standing armies. U.S. NCOs are the backbone and the results speak for themselves.

I take exception to some of what's in the OP. Responses in blue.

So, I'll set the stage. Prepare for butthurt. The military is a purely socialist authoritarian institution.

• The military is centralized and hierarchical. Yes
• Soldiers are owned by the government. Soldiers are not owned, that was eradicated in 1863. There is a contractual agreement between employee and employer.
• Soldiers can't speak out without repercussion. Soldiers are encouraged to express their opinions, but like any corporate setting, once a decision is made, everyone is in lock step.
• Soldiers can't refuse searches. They live and/or work on government property.
• Soldiers are restricted in the way they carry weapons. Well now, we cannot have everyone making up their own weapons policies. While on a different scale, this is not any different from a police department or even a supervised firing range.
• Soldiers have limited ability to choose their path/assignment. This is somewhat true out of necessity. Not a lot of demand for hair dressers in the military. However, if an individual has the proper aptitude and experience, there are lots of opportunities.
• Soldiers can't refuse forced vaccinations. I didn't enjoy the 100+ vaccinations I received, but it sure beats the heck out of getting sick. Over the centuries disease has killed more soldiers than bullets.
• Soldiers can't dress how they want. Hello, it's called a "uniformed" service. There's also very utilitarian purposes in wearing uniforms.
• Military leadership/governance is not representative. I didn't elect or even support the CEO at the company where I work. The Founders did however establish elected civilian leadership over the U.S. military.
• and more!

 

[Kutnupe14]

The more militarized the society, the more socialist/autocratic it is. From Sparta to Nazi Germany.

 

[rambone]

Soldiers are restricted in the way they carry weapons. Well now, we cannot have everyone making up their own weapons policies. While on a different scale, this is not any different from a police department or even a supervised firing range.

Military bases are great big Gun Free Zones. Jared Lee Loughner taught us once again that disarming people does not create safety. There is no conceivable reason that trained military personnel should be barred from carrying weapons and ammo, ever. The M.P.'s couldn't save the disarmed victims of Fort Hood.

Soldiers can't refuse forced vaccinations. I didn't enjoy the 100+ vaccinations I received, but it sure beats the heck out of getting sick. Over the centuries disease has killed more soldiers than bullets.

Mother of God. That's exactly what I mean. Your body is a piece of meat for them to violate. They own you. Every last individual right is stripped away from you, for the so-called collective good. I have a friend in the Air Force who was paralyzed and bed-bound for 1 full year due to getting F***'ed up from forced military vaccinations.

The more militarized the society, the more socialist/autocratic it is. From Sparta to Nazi Germany.

Truth.

 

[Pocketman]

Military bases are great big Gun Free Zones. Jared Lee Loughner taught us once again that disarming people does not create safety. There is no conceivable reason that trained military personnel should be barred from carrying weapons and ammo, ever. The M.P.'s couldn't save the disarmed victims of Fort Hood.


Mother of God. That's exactly what I mean. Your body is a piece of meat for them to violate. They own you. Every last individual right is stripped away from you, for the so-called collective good. I have a friend in the Air Force who was paralyzed and bed-bound for 1 full year due to getting F***'ed up from forced military vaccinations.

OK, I see what you mean about carrying on base. Didn't use to be this way. Unfortunately, like the rest of the country, restrictions have been enacted. In all fairness, you've apparently not been on a range with some of these recruits. There are holes in a lot places where they shouldn't be. Probably safer for all of us that some are not carrying unsupervised.

EDIT: There are some pretty nasty diseases around the world that most of us have no natural immunities toward. Vaccines are not administered just because they can. (Did you know Washington administered smallpox vaccine to all the troops at Valley Forge?)

All I can say Rambone, is while there are "socialists" aspects to the military, it isn't as bad as one is trying to paint it. The model will not work in an open society. Be thankful there are men and women in uniform, who are willing to temporarily give up some of their freedoms so we can enjoy ours.

 

[rambone]

(Did you know Washington administered smallpox vaccine to all the troops at Valley Forge?)

If medical experiments like vaccines are made readily available, but not mandatory, that's fine.

But stripping soldiers of their last bit of individual choice over their own body, is wrong and very unappealing to me. Anyways, it fits with the OP.

All I can say Rambone, is while there are "socialists" aspects to the military, it isn't as bad as one is trying to paint it. The model will not work in an open society. Be thankful there are men and women in uniform, who are willing to temporarily give up some of their freedoms so we can enjoy ours.

The sacrifices that soldiers make are great. This was not supposed to be offensive to the soldiers (although of course I get accused of hating America ). But are all the sacrifices really necessary (forced vaccines, searches, gun control...)

Anyways, the main point of the discussion was to prepare ourselves when someone points a finger and says, "See, socialism works! And it works great!"

 

[Pocketman]

... Anyways, the main point of the discussion was to prepare ourselves when someone points a finger and says, "See, socialism works! And it works great!"

I think you've achieved your objective Rambone. While there may be some good "socialist" aspects of the military, I don't think it serves as a good example for society as a whole.

BTW - The Valley Forge small pox vaccinations were mandatory.

 

[lumpy39us]

A standing army needs to be ready. Coming from a elected official I really don't think I take it too seriously. IMO the govt is one of the largest welfare programs available, though it only caters to the elite.
The political gain from the gov official, if there was one, would be to divide the people, lol.
The Military is run as it is for a reason, though when off duty all that is expected is for all to be law abiding citizens. Are your Corporate bosses any different? After all they are guided by the shareholders, who demand more profit, and they don't care how it is gotten.
You see there really is no difference other than my first post, the Military will defend your rights, the share holder will defend their profits.

 

[rambone]

BTW - The Valley Forge small pox vaccinations were mandatory.

That's a shame.

I'm sure you know that Washington was killed by his doctor.

 

[jeremy]

Rambone I have said it before. Talk about WTF you know or pound sand.

There are places that the Military goes that diseases that have been almost eradicated here still run rampant. Disease is STILL the Number one killer of Soldiers around the World.

As far as being forced to take Vaccinations, One willingly signs their Contracts and Agrees to the terms...
If one is to ****ing ignorant to read the Contract before signing, oh ****ing well...

 

[Expat]

There are places that the Military goes that diseases that have been almost eradicated here still run rampant.

I hear that widespread vaccinations in this country had something to do with that difference.

 

[UncleMike]

I hear that widespread vaccinations in this country had something to do with that difference.

There ya go!
Being all practical again.

 

[steveh_131]

I hear that widespread vaccinations in this country had something to do with that difference.

[UncleMike]
Don't let FACTS get in the way of your SENSATIONALISM
[/UncleMike]

 

[UncleMike]

[UncleMike]
Don't let FACTS get in the way of your SENSATIONALISM
[/UncleMike]

Nice graphs.
Who made them?
I can make nice graphs too.

 

[rambone]

Rambone I have said it before. Talk about WTF you know or pound sand.

There are places that the Military goes that diseases that have been almost eradicated here still run rampant. Disease is STILL the Number one killer of Soldiers around the World.

As far as being forced to take Vaccinations, One willingly signs their Contracts and Agrees to the terms...
If one is to ****ing ignorant to read the Contract before signing, oh ****ing well...

So which of my points are you disproving? You join the military and they own your ass. Even basic medical choice and control of your own body is stripped from you, in true socialist fashion.

I think its a flawed model. You should be able to serve in the military without turning over every ounce of individual choice to the State.

We'll chat about vaccines some other time.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

So which of my points are you disproving? You join the military and they own your ass. Even basic medical choice and control of your own body is stripped from you, in true socialist fashion.

I think its a flawed model. You should be able to serve in the military without turning over every ounce of individual choice to the State.

We'll chat about vaccines some other time.

First you don't know what the word socialist means. Second you don't understand that a contract requires specific performance by both parties. Third you don't understand that some people are willing to voluntarily sacrifice their own individuality and identity for a period of time to protect this nation and it's citizens. Fourth you think you have the right to serve in the military under your own terms of service.

Did I miss anything?

 

[jeremy]

So which of my points are you disproving? You join the military and they own your ass. Even basic medical choice and control of your own body is stripped from you, in true socialist fashion.

All of your points are disproving just by this one little Statement. Everybody Serving in the US Military is doing so Voluntarily. Everyone signed their own individual Contracts.

I think its a flawed model. You should be able to serve in the military without turning over every ounce of individual choice to the State.

I think you are using flawed logic...

We'll chat about vaccines some other time.

Bring it...

 

[rambone]

Everybody Serving in the US Military is doing so Voluntarily. Everyone signed their own individual Contracts.

Yet it is mandatory that people register with the "Selective Service" program just in case the government changes its mind, right? Sign up within 30 days of your 18th birthday or face 5 years in prison. Man, there's a true sign of a voluntary military if I ever saw one.

Until the Selective Service Act is repealed, forceful military draft is just a pen-stroke away from being pushed on any of us. If our leaders could justify conscription to participate in the Vietnamese civil war, they would just as easily justify it for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria...

I think that the history of forced service to the State in this country is good enough reason for all of us to analyze the military's forceful, collectivist practices. Some of us have longer memories than others regarding our "voluntary" military.

 

[badwolf.usmc]

Yet it is mandatory that people register with the "Selective Service" program just in case the government changes its mind, right? Sign up within 30 days of your 18th birthday or face 5 years in prison. Man, there's a true sign of a voluntary military if I ever saw one.

Making a Choice: Conscientious Objection or Refusing to Register

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Selective_Service_System#Failure_to_register

In 1980, men who knew they were required to register and did not do so could face up to five years in jail or a fine up to $50,000 if convicted. The potential fine was later increased to $250,000. Despite these possible penalties, government records indicate that from 1980 through 1986 there were only 20 indictments, of which 19 were instigated in part by self-publicized and self-reported non-registration.[23] As one of the elements of the offense, the government must prove that a violation of the Military Selective Service Act was knowing and willful. This is almost impossible unless the prospective defendant has publicly stated that he knew he was required to register or report for induction, or unless he has been visited by the FBI, personally served with notice to register or report for induction, and given another chance to comply. The last prosecution for non-registration was in January 1986, after which many believed the government declined to continue enforcing that law when it became apparent that the trials were themselves causing a decline in registration. Routine checks requiring identification virtually never include a request for draft card.

Yea, i can see how having the Selective Service negates the idea that we have an all voluntary military. Personally i would rather they got rid of it since it serves no real purpose anymore and i couldn't trust someone who was drafted as much as i could trust someone who volunteered.

 

[jeremy]

Yet it is mandatory that people register with the "Selective Service" program just in case the government changes its mind, right? Sign up within 30 days of your 18th birthday or face 5 years in prison. Man, there's a true sign of a voluntary military if I ever saw one.

Until the Selective Service Act is repealed, forceful military draft is just a pen-stroke away from being pushed on any of us. If our leaders could justify conscription to participate in the Vietnamese civil war, they would just as easily justify it for invading Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Libya, Yemen, Syria...

I think that the history of forced service to the State in this country is good enough reason for all of us to analyze the military's forceful, collectivist practices. Some of us have longer memories than others regarding our "voluntary" military.

Too bad you Know so much...