opinions on self-defense ammo

[HICKMAN]

Does anyone else keep different mags for carry and "in-house"?

I always carried hydrashoks, but at home I kept a mag topped with 3 or 4 Glasers.

Didn't want over-penetration in the house.

 

[pudly]

Does anyone else keep different mags for carry and "in-house"?

I always carried hydrashoks, but at home I kept a mag topped with 3 or 4 Glasers.

Didn't want over-penetration in the house.

That's why I have a shotgun in the house. For me, the handgun is the portable option, not the primary in-house option.

 

[s346k]

s346K,
You're concerned about overpenetration with a higher velocity, lower weight bullet, but I think you've got this backwards.
In the test results I have seen, the factor most related to increased penetration is sectional density - a function of mass vs. diameter. In the same caliber, a heavier bullet will have more sectional density and thus more penetration.
You are using a relatively lightweight bullet for .45, which should have relatively less penetration (all other things being equal).

ok. so you're telling me the tests you've seen would verify that a 230g hp (for example) going 850fps is going to penetrate MORE than a 185g hp going 1200fps? i fail to see this logic, i'd like to read on this. where did you find this information? i will do some searching myself, also. do you recall seeing a point in which the speed of said bullet will trump the weight with regard to penetration?

i am afraid that a 185g hp bullet going 1200+/- fps out of my .45 will go through someone and into whatever; a wall, the dog, a shoe...but you're saying it's less likely to happen because of the bullet's weight, right? and my 850 fps 230g hp would be MORE likely...?

 

[HICKMAN]

That's why I have a shotgun in the house. For me, the handgun is the portable option, not the primary in-house option.

I also have a shotgun... which would be in my wife's hands

 

[Joe Williams]

ok. so you're telling me the tests you've seen would verify that a 230g hp (for example) going 850fps is going to penetrate MORE than a 185g hp going 1200fps? i fail to see this logic, i'd like to read on this. where did you find this information? i will do some searching myself, also. do you recall seeing a point in which the speed of said bullet will trump the weight with regard to penetration?

i am afraid that a 185g hp bullet going 1200+/- fps out of my .45 will go through someone and into whatever; a wall, the dog, a shoe...but you're saying it's less likely to happen because of the bullet's weight, right? and my 850 fps 230g hp would be MORE likely...?

Federal Hydra-Shok from a 16

 

[s346k]

Federal Hydra-Shok from a 16

Shot 1 - 230gr Hydrashok. Impacted at 984 ft/sec, penetrated to 15.2" and was recovered at 0.607" average diameter.

Shot 2 - 165gr Hydrashok. Impacted at 1215 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.0" and was recovered at 0.585" average diameter.

Shot 3 - 230gr Hydrashok, overpenetration test. Impacted at 988 ft/sec, penetrated 7.2" of gelatin, two pieces of interior wallboard and 3.3" of gelatin block placed behind the 'interior wall'.

Shot 4 - 165gr Hydrashok, overpenetration test. Impacted at 1200 ft/sec, penetrated 7.2" of gelatin and was found between the second gelatin block and the 'interior wall'.

i see no pattern with weight and velocity...? am i missing something?

 

[Goodcat]

I personally carry 115gr Hornady XTP (which is identical to the 115gr TAP-FPD, minus the black nickle coating on the brass.)

Buy something name brand... Federal, Speer, Winchester, Hornady, Cor-Bon, etc.
shoot at least two magazines worth of the chosen ammo through each magazine you intend to carry. (Then mark the magazines so you know which ones are "Carry Mags")

If everything runs without a hitch.... you found a good defensive ammo that will work with your gun. Guns like Glocks, HKs and Sigs generally aren't very picky about what you feed them.

Your Mileage may vary.

I've never heard of anything like that! Will using a mag for my particular carry ammo only shape the top of the mag just a tiny bit differently to avoid FTF or something? I'm curious now! I've got enough mag's I can do this for sure. lol

 

[Joe Williams]

I've never heard of anything like that! Will using a mag for my particular carry ammo only shape the top of the mag just a tiny bit differently to avoid FTF or something? I'm curious now! I've got enough mag's I can do this for sure. lol

Marking a carry mag means (to me at least) that I've tested the mag and know it works.

I actually stopped doing this a while back, because if a mag didn't work I tossed it. All my mags are carry mags.

 

[Joe Williams]

Shot 1 - 230gr Hydrashok. Impacted at 984 ft/sec, penetrated to 15.2" and was recovered at 0.607" average diameter.

Shot 2 - 165gr Hydrashok. Impacted at 1215 ft/sec, penetrated to 11.0" and was recovered at 0.585" average diameter.

Shot 3 - 230gr Hydrashok, overpenetration test. Impacted at 988 ft/sec, penetrated 7.2" of gelatin, two pieces of interior wallboard and 3.3" of gelatin block placed behind the 'interior wall'.

Shot 4 - 165gr Hydrashok, overpenetration test. Impacted at 1200 ft/sec, penetrated 7.2" of gelatin and was found between the second gelatin block and the 'interior wall'.

i see no pattern with weight and velocity...? am i missing something?

Heavier, slower bullet out penetrated, in two different types of tests, a lighter and much faster bullet.

One test was bare gelatin.

The other involved shooting through gelatin (simulating a person, of course), then building material, then more gelatin. In this test, the heavier slower bullet penetrated the first gel block, two pieces of wallboard (an interior wall), and nearly halfway through the gel block. In the same test, the lighter, faster bullet penetrated the wall board, but failed to penetrate the second gel block at all.

 

[antsi]

ok. so you're telling me the tests you've seen would verify that a 230g hp (for example) going 850fps is going to penetrate MORE than a 185g hp going 1200fps? i fail to see this logic, i'd like to read on this. where did you find this information? i will do some searching myself, also. do you recall seeing a point in which the speed of said bullet will trump the weight with regard to penetration?

i am afraid that a 185g hp bullet going 1200+/- fps out of my .45 will go through someone and into whatever; a wall, the dog, a shoe...but you're saying it's less likely to happen because of the bullet's weight, right? and my 850 fps 230g hp would be MORE likely...?

Look up sectional density. This is the factor that has the greatest effect on penetration:
Sectional density - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For a really extreme example, look at the penetrators fired from tank main guns. They are all long and skinny, made of massive materials like tungsten or uranium. The combination of high weight and a long skinny shape gives these projectiles high sectional density, and thus, great penetrating ability.

Particularly with hollow point, expanding, or fragmenting projectiles, a lighter weight projectile will often penetrate less.

Generally if you are talking about the same caliber firearm, you are limited to a certain range of chamber pressure and there will be a tradeoff between bullet weight and velocity. Heavier bullets going slower, lighter bullets going faster. Within these parameters, it is generally true that the object with greater sectional density (the heavier bullet given the same caliber) will penetrate more.

This website A primer on handgun terminal ballistics ShadoWalker’s Firearms and Self Defense Blog
provided the following example of the kind of trade-off I refer to above:

Consider the following 40 S&W loads (40 S&W bullet diameter is .401)
40 S&W 135 grain bullet at 1300 FPS
Energy: 506 ft/lbs
Momentum: 25.07
SD: .119
40 S&W 155 grain bullet at 1175 FPS
Energy: 475 ft/lbs
Momentum: 26.01
SD: .137
40 S&W 180 grain bullet at 1000 FPS
Energy: 399 ft/lbs
Momentum: 25.71
SD: .159
If you considered just the information printed on the box (the velocity and the energy) the 135 grain seems to be the clear winner, it is traveling faster with more energy than the other two loads, but once you calculate momentum and sectional density a different picture is painted.
Both the 155 and 180 grain loads have more momentum than the 135 grain load, and both have a higher sectional density meaning they should penetrate deeper and yield a better result.

This is also an informed discussion of terminal ballistics
Shakey Pete's Shootin' Shack: Sectional Density And Bullet Penetration.
Read with special attention to the paragraph that begins "One of the most important things to know in ballistics the the sectional density of the bullet."

 

[Goodcat]

Marking a carry mag means (to me at least) that I've tested the mag and know it works.

I actually stopped doing this a while back, because if a mag didn't work I tossed it. All my mags are carry mags.

Oh I thought he meant literally using mags for carry ammo only, then other mags for my cheap range ammo. Anytime a gun fails and it appears an old mag may be at fault, I toss it as well.

 

[Joe Williams]

Oh I thought he meant literally using mags for carry ammo only, then other mags for my cheap range ammo. Anytime a gun fails and it appears an old mag may be at fault, I toss it as well.

Some people do use less reliable mags (often cheapo aftermarket ones) for range use only. Mags are kinda pricey to just trash. LIke you, though, I don't feel like taking the chance of getting them mixed up.

 

[Goodcat]

Just something about imaging myself heart pounding in the heat of a situation and think, was that a range mag in there? lol

 

[s346k]

interesting. i learned something today. i did some searching for myself and found a ton of material on sectional density, everything antsi posted was backed up (or vice versa) with what i read. very interesting. i'm not too awful worried about the house, as i have a shotgun within arm's reach that i'd be grabbing first and foremost...i keep having thoughts of being forced to defend myself in a populated area and watching the bullet go through the target and hit an innocent bystander. definately not something i want to happen and i'd like to make an educated decision regarding ammo to keep this from happening.

thanks again guys.

 

[SMiller]

Wow, I guess I am the only one carrying Speer gold dots, I really thought it was a popular ammo.

 

[Wabatuckian]

Gold Dot is a has-been

 

[gglass]

The test results for Federal HST ammo speak for themselves (Google it). I was lucky enough to stock up on HST's before Federal decided force it off dealer shelves.

I have yet to see any ammo that reliably expands and penetrates as well as HST's without losing its jacket.

My SHTF stock does include Gold-Dots, Golden Sabers and Hydra-Shoks as well... You can never have too much ammo.

 

[WinChoke]

Really any modern, factory, hollow-point, self-defense ammo should do you just fine for carry.

I'm currently carrying 147gr. Federal HST 9mm.

In the past I've carried TAP, Gold Dots, Hydra-Shok, Silvertips-- they're all good and defensible in court.

You state that they are defensible in court.

Some years ago, I worked with a guy who would not carry a weapon with HP's of any kind. FMJ only. His reason for this was fear of legal repercussions a la lawsuit filed by the "victim" or family based on (in his words) excessive use of force. He believed that a lawsuit decision could reference restrictions in regard to the use of HPs in war stipulated by the Hague Convention.

Personally, I figure that as long as the ammo is legal to possessl, it was legal to carry, thus legal to use if deadly force is justifiable. My brother, who is a detective for the Wilmington, NC PD concurs with my position, however, I have not heard of a precedent here in Indiana.

 

[m39fan]

In .45's I used to carry 185gr HST's in the .40's I carried XTP's. Both were issue to me for years. I guess once I got out, I stayed with the tried and true.

Another round I've been impressed with is the IQ rounds. In personal testing, they appear to work exceptionally well and do have higher velocity due to grain weight. I have doubts as to their value against heavy winter clothing though.

HTH,
Mike

 

[esrice]

Some years ago, I worked with a guy who would not carry a weapon with HP's of any kind. FMJ only. His reason for this was fear of legal repercussions a la lawsuit filed by the "victim" or family based on (in his words) excessive use of force.

I think fear plays a big part in many people's decisions when it comes to carrying a deadly weapon.

What your friend probably didn't realize, is that his fear should've been based on the family of the innocent bystander who got hit when his FMJ passed through the bad guy and killed him instead.

A hollow point's job is to expand inside tissue. This does two things: 1) it causes a larger wound channel, which allows quicker blood loss, thereby stopping the attacker, and 2) it keeps the bullet INSIDE the attacker, where it belongs.

Both of those are good things, but unfortunately you only hear about #1 in the media. A good lawyer should be able to articulate this in court to show that a person carrying hollow points is indeed concerned with the safety of innocents, as well as the incapacitation of the attacker.

Oh how I wish the whole "Black Talon" thing had just never happened. . .