No Trump at the FNC Debate??

[IndyDave1776]

We're talking about Trump here, right? Because this is exactly him. He's sounding off, and not actually providing plans or details about doing anything.

Yes, but he has a history of getting things done, unlike most alternatives. At the end of the day, regardless of what a candidate says, he generally will do exactly what his owners tell him to do which generally translates into no significant change of the status quo whatsoever. The last holdout among non-Trump candidates seemed to be Cruz, but given that he apparently owes Goldman-Sachs, I am guessing that I should have much narrower limits about my expectations than I otherwise might. Unfortunately, I don't see Paul gaining enough traction to keep his car on the road on the way home much less go anywhere, so I am left where I am left.

 

[T.Lex]

Significantly, there is one poll in Iowa which really matters, so it will be interesting to see what that one says.

To the extent polling can be trusted, it currently shows (likely not including post-debate/non-debate numbers) Trump with a lead in Iowa. Running +7 or so, outside the margin of error by a few points.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Without Trump shaking the formula up we would be looking at bush as a front runner.
At a MINIMUM I would call that a win.

 

[IndyDave1776]

To the extent polling can be trusted, it currently shows (likely not including post-debate/non-debate numbers) Trump with a lead in Iowa. Running +7 or so, outside the margin of error by a few points.

I was thinking of actual caucus results, but that seems informative.

 

[T.Lex]

Yes, but he has a history of getting things done, unlike most alternatives.

This is EXACTLY the problem with Trump. HE gets things done as a businessman, because he is the boss. What he says goes.

That is fundamentally and inherently different than governing. Well, governing in a democratic republic. If you're into fascism, then, yeah... that paradigm totally works.

 

[chipbennett]

They all had flaws and weaknesses but I'm referring to his infidelity and multiple marriages. If the man can't keep a vow or promise to one person I can't see him keeping promises to a large number of people.

I will readily admit that this is why I'm not all-in on Trump, even if I've accepted that he's going to win the GOP nomination. Trump has changed or "evolved" on several positions, it seems, and I'm not entirely ready to trust that he'll always hold to the current iteration of those positions.

The sad thing is, in this regard, I trust Trump every bit as much as I trust the Establishment candidates.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

This is EXACTLY the problem with Trump. HE gets things done as a businessman, because he is the boss. What he says goes.

That is fundamentally and inherently different than governing. Well, governing in a democratic republic. If you're into fascism, then, yeah... that paradigm totally works.

Which calls back to my previous post - You can't be for the Constitution and Trump at the same time. He's another Obama, and he will dictate in the same way.

 

[IndyDave1776]

This is EXACTLY the problem with Trump. HE gets things done as a businessman, because he is the boss. What he says goes.

That is fundamentally and inherently different than governing. Well, governing in a democratic republic. If you're into fascism, then, yeah... that paradigm totally works.

Even in business he still has to deal with people who are not obligated to cooperate with him. I don't see an either/or choice of more establishment BS or fascism. Why do we have to choose between sitting with thumbs up rear ends or going full Fascist?

The problem I see is that the ship is sinking today. The candidate we would actually like to see in 4, 8, 12, or 16 years, maybe never, just isn't a very good bet right now.

 

[T.Lex]

Even in business he still has to deal with people who are not obligated to cooperate with him.

Do you know how he got banks to cooperate? He borrowed sheet tons of money from them, then threatened to default, which would send them into bankruptcy.

Do you know how he got real estate holdouts to cooperate? He tried to use his friends in government to threaten eminent domain. He threatened to use other friends to economically isolate people and run them out of business.

Do you know how he got government to cooperate? He wined and dined and lobbied and went as far as he could toward buying the influence he needed.

Do you know how he got wives/girlfriends to cooperate? Money.

Does any of this sound like good governance?

I don't see an either/or choice of more establishment BS or fascism. Why do we have to choose between sitting with thumbs up rear ends or going full Fascist?

I didn't say it was either/or. More like pick your poison. More of the same Republican creeping-conservativism, or more cult of personality?

The problem I see is that the ship is sinking today.

So do we hire a captain who knows how to sail, maybe even repair a ship, or do we hire a (rich) snake oil salesman?

 

[BugI02]

The sad thing is, in this regard, I trust Trump every bit as much as I trust the Establishment candidates.

QFT, Chip

 

[olhorseman]

I will readily admit that this is why I'm not all-in on Trump, even if I've accepted that he's going to win the GOP nomination. Trump has changed or "evolved" on several positions, it seems, and I'm not entirely ready to trust that he'll always hold to the current iteration of those positions.

The sad thing is, in this regard, I trust Trump every bit as much as I trust the Establishment candidates.

I agree, but they are all "Establishment". It's just a mater of which "Establishment"

 

[BugI02]

.......So do we hire a captain who knows how to sail, maybe even repair a ship, or do we hire a (rich) snake oil salesman?

What 'Captain' are we talking about? What knowledge of sail and the mecurial sea?
Rubio has been a Senator for 4+ years, no other significant political office.
Cruz has been a Senator for 2+ years, no other significant political office.

Neither resume actually shouts that they're 'Captain and Commander' material. Not really even first mate material

ETA: Both are too much like a Republican version of the Obama 'resume' for my taste if I wish to try something different (and I do)

 

[hoots1238]

Someone needs to collect the bill and standup for us!! Vote Trump

 

[ArcadiaGP]

What 'Captain' are we talking about? What knowledge of sail and the mecurial sea?
Rubio has been a Senator for 4+ years, no other significant political office.
Cruz has been a Senator for 2+ years, no other significant political office.

Neither resume actually shouts that they're 'Captain and Commander' material. Not really even first mate material

They have some politics experience, compared to.... literally none. Assuming we're still talking about Trump here.

Cruz ran to make change and fix Washington as a Tea Party candidate. Wouldn't he have appeal as that "new guy that wants to shake things up"?

 

[chipbennett]

They have some politics experience, compared to.... literally none. Assuming we're still talking about Trump here.

Cruz ran to make change and fix Washington as a Tea Party candidate. Wouldn't he have appeal as that "new guy that wants to shake things up"?

I want a president with executive experience, not political experience. That's why my first choices were solid, no-nonsense governors like Scott Walker and Rick Perry.

 

[T.Lex]

What 'Captain' are we talking about? What knowledge of sail and the mecurial sea?
Rubio has been a Senator for 4+ years, no other significant political office.
Cruz has been a Senator for 2+ years, no other significant political office.

Neither resume actually shouts that they're 'Captain and Commander' material. Not really even first mate material

ETA: Both are too much like a Republican version of the Obama 'resume' for my taste if I wish to try something different (and I do)

So what's wrong the Jeb Bush's resume? (I said "resume" not "personality" or "family".)

I can't stand Christie, but his resume is better than those you mention, in those areas.

 

[olhorseman]

I want a president with executive experience, not political experience. That's why my first choices were solid, no-nonsense governors like Scott Walker and Rick Perry.

Yeah, while everyone was marching to the minstrel show they missed men capable of true leadership.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I want a president with executive experience, not political experience. That's why my first choices were solid, no-nonsense governors like Scott Walker and Rick Perry.

Both were my top choices when this all started.

 

[BugI02]

They have some politics experience, compared to.... literally none. Assuming we're still talking about Trump here.

Cruz ran to make change and fix Washington as a Tea Party candidate. Wouldn't he have appeal as that "new guy that wants to shake things up"?

But that's the heart of the matter, if we speak to the analogy of electing a captain for the ship of state. Cruz and Rubio have political experience and what have they accomplished with it vis a vis the platforms they have run on? Not much. So in terms of changing the course of the ship of state, what value can we place upon political experience? Arguably, not much.

Trump has no career political experience but I would argue he knows a lot about the dirty little secrets of how things really get done in DC. I'm not sure that that isn't of equivalent value to the Cruz-Rubio knowledge base of how things don't get done.

Cruz and Rubio have virtually no experience running a business, meeting a budget, navigating the regulatory nightmare - essentially understanding the plight of businessmen and workers in America. Argue about his type of experience and the relative value of it, Trump has something that Cruz and Rubio do not. Add to that that he doesn't seem to have owners, either, and it seems to be Trump 2 Cruz-Rubio 1/2

 

[Alpo]

Do you know how he got banks to cooperate? He borrowed sheet tons of money from them, then threatened to default, which would send them into bankruptcy.

Do you know how he got real estate holdouts to cooperate? He tried to use his friends in government to threaten eminent domain. He threatened to use other friends to economically isolate people and run them out of business.

Do you know how he got government to cooperate? He wined and dined and lobbied and went as far as he could toward buying the influence he needed.

Do you know how he got wives/girlfriends to cooperate? Money.

Does any of this sound like good governance?


I didn't say it was either/or. More like pick your poison. More of the same Republican creeping-conservativism, or more cult of personality?


So do we hire a captain who knows how to sail, maybe even repair a ship, or do we hire a (rich) snake oil salesman?

No doubt about it, Trump is a thug. When I was in NY in the mid 80's, Trump was negotiating a deal and lost his temper. He screamed and repeatedly kicked a table and planter in the board room, ruining the planter and a new $600 pair of Gucci's (a lot of money for men's shoes in those days).

In a world of thugs, we don't need one more whose ego can throw us into unnecessary military action.

If Trump wins the ballot, it will be the end of the Republican Party.