My life was in danger. I want my lawyer.

[Dave]

God forbid any of us are ever in a gun fight. Or find ourselves in a situation where our lives are in danger and we have to use deadly force. I have always heard its best to give little info to the police. Clearly state your life was in danger and ask for a lawyer.

How many of you have a lawyer and are prepared for such an incident (got his or her number in your wallet or in your phone).

At the moment I don't know who I would call and would like to get a name 's' of a good lawyer who deals in these matters.

 

[Pete-FWA]

Dave,

Great question

You are nothing but wise for being prepared for this situation or even one not gun related.

While I pray that the scenario never presents itself to me, I am one who is prepared with many contacts in case I need assistance.

 

[Paul]

Well my father is a defense lawyer in Tennessee, used to practice in Indiana also. Make sure you call 911 and tell very little to the police. Ask for a lawyer before telling the cops anything but the basic facts like i was attacked, ect. He said even if you have a half-assed lawyer, in Indiana you wont have a problem.

He did say that make sure the attacked is dead, makes for an easier defense. Dead men tell no lies.

 

[Ri22o]

I would use anyone other than my uncle. He is a dick and doesn't give two shits about his clients. His name is Alex Voils, and he is a defense attorney downtown.

 

[Dave]

Wow opcorn2: Thanks for being honest about it!

I would use anyone other than my uncle. He is a dick and doesn't give two shits about his clients. His name is Alex Voils, and he is a defense attorney downtown.

 

[hkhoosier]

scratch that one

He is a dick and doesn't give two shits about his clients. His name is Alex Voils, and he is a defense attorney downtown.

 

[Ri22o]

Wow opcorn2: Thanks for being honest about it!

No problem.

 

[esrice]

I have Mr. Bryan Ciyou's card behind my permit. He's with Ciyou & Dixon. I got the chance to meet him at the 1500 through a mutual friend of our's. He's a nice guy and very knowledgeable about handgun law. He gave me his card and said he was more than happy to help out a fellow gun owner.

Some of you may have read his book:

You can visit his website for more info:

Ciyou & Dixon - Contact Us

 

[Fenway]

Good info! Thanks

I have Mr. Bryan Ciyou's card behind my permit. He's with Ciyou & Dixon. I got the chance to meet him at the 1500 through a mutual friend of our's. He's a nice guy and very knowledgeable about handgun law. He gave me his card and said he was more than happy to help out a fellow gun owner.

Some of you may have read his book:

You can visit his website for more info:

Ciyou & Dixon - Contact Us

 

[bwframe]

Great topic

I have kind of a distant ex-relative I would use to at least give me early advice and get me to who I needed. Pretty weak huh? Yes I need the name of the go to person also.

I have done some study on this issue and could always use more knowledge. For sure though, this is an area where puffing out your chest and touting your "rights" could get you into some hot water if not criminal, possibly civil. You can call it paranoia, but that is one of the reasons I specifically stayed away from posting in one of the current threads in the tactics and training section of this forum. I fear that anything posted in a public forum such as this, could come back to bite you, if you ever had to use lethal force.

 

[bwframe]

Wonder where you draw the line between explaining yourself and convicting yourself?

 

[Pete-FWA]

That's precisely why they say to keep your words to a minimum and be sure to have legal representation.

 

[kludge]

He did say that make sure the attacked is dead, makes for an easier defense.

Paul, no offense to you or your father, but that sounds like a quick trip from justifiable self defense to a murder charge.

Assuming you are justified to shoot, if the attacker stops attacking, you have to stop shooting. Same thing applies to a fist fight, if the attacker withdraws or gives up, you can't continue to fight him... otherwise you are then also looking at a criminal charge (battery or felony assault).

Wonder where you draw the line between explaining yourself and convicting yourself?

Be overly polite to everyone. Don't go places where bad things happen or be with people that always seem to find trouble. Always be aware of your surroundings (things and people) as a first option try to find a means of escape (especially in public places). If you're doing those things, most likely you won't have to worry about convicting yourself.

I'm not a lawyer, but everyone should read, know, and understand the laws for justifiable self defense. The following is worth every penny you paid for it:

Indiana Code 35-41-3 covers justifiable use of force and deadly force. Pay particular attention to Sec. 2(e) as to when force is not justified.

If things go really bad and you are left to using deadly force... (deadly force doesn't mean the guy dies, it means "force that creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury")

IC 35-41-1-25
"Serious bodily injury" defined
Sec. 25. "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes:
(1) serious permanent disfigurement;
(2) unconsciousness;
(3) extreme pain;
(4) permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member or organ; or
(5) loss of a fetus.

...if you are left to using deadly force... and you survive...

get to a safe place if you can...
reload if you can...
reholster if you think it's safe to do so...
call 911 as soon as possible if you haven't already...
tell them your name.
briefly describe the incident (one word) and where it occured.
"There was a mugging/robbery/carjacking/home invasion at 123 Main St./corner of Fifth and main."
tell them to "Send police and an ambulance."
if you also need an ambluance tell them where you are and they need to send TWO (or more) ambulances.
tell them "the mugger/rapist/burglar/invader was shot" not "I shot him" or briefly describe the injury the bad guy sustained (use the word that that refers to the crime that was being committed).

If the operator starts asking lots of questions about the injury or crime or what happened... ignore it... just keep asking for police and an ambulance... if you don't feel safe with one hand on the phone tell them you have to put the phone down... your heart will be pounding and you will be full of adrenaline, you will have tunnel vision and

let them know who you are. "I'm the homeowner." / "I was mugged/carjacked/assaulted", etc. YOU are the VICTIM of the crime.
let them know you are armed.
describe yourself/family and what you are wearing in as much detail as you can.
let them know exactly where you/family are or where you are headed to.

If this is a public place, expect to be disarmed by the police and handcuffed while they sort things out, set up a police line, and start gathering any potential witnesses and talking to them while the incident is fresh in their minds.

Most people, unless there was a loud altercation leading up to the event, because they are all in their own little world, will only know what happened AFTER they heard a gunshot and started paying attention... like firing a second shot then running away.

If they start asking questions you can say "I was being raped/assaulted/carjacked, but I really don't feel well. (trust me you won't) I'd like to get medical attention as soon as possible." If you have any injury at all you will need it... e\it may appear small, but even small injuries done with great force can lead to serious problems.

It might seem like a good idea to stand up for what you did when faced with what other might have "seen" but really you should...

inform the officers that you will fully cooperate with any investigation, demand (nicely) medical attention, and then SHUT UP!

 

[kludge]

Oh, yeah, I also carry Bryan Ciyou's card.

 

[Thickburger]

another shameless plug for Tactical Response follows...

if you take one of their classes they teach you this exactly. now i know that valhalla tells you to call 911 and say, "i shot someone, send police and ambulance now". never do that. you have just admitted you did something onto a recording that CAN be used in court against you.

in the TR classes, and i'm sure Shay can clear anything wrong i say, they tell you to be vaguely informative. "there's been a shooting at XXX, please send police and medical personel". and when they get there NEVER say that you shot someone, just that a person was shot and you will try and cooperate as much as possible but cannot incriminate yourself. and say you will be more than willing to answer specific questions when your lawyer is present.

here's the deal. if you shoot someone, you ARE going to jail. no matter what so don't bother trying to convince someone on the scene when your emotions are nutzo and your hormones have taken over. it's best to not say little until you can clear your head and recall exactly what happened.

 

[Thickburger]

and i know a good friend of mine that this situation happened. he shot someone in self-defense in his own home.

many thousands of dollars in lawyer fees later and the case was thrown out. but they were gonna use his 911 recording against him and the guy he shot had a record. when it comes to the courtroom it's all politics.

 

[bwframe]

and i know a good friend of mine that this situation happened. he shot someone in self-defense in his own home.

many thousands of dollars in lawyer fees later and the case was thrown out. but they were gonna use his 911 recording against him and the guy he shot had a record. when it comes to the courtroom it's all politics.

This is very interesting. Thanks

Did this happen to your friend in Indy? Can you give some details? What made the police think they had a case against him?

 

[Thickburger]

long story short.

guys were drunk but my friend was not. it was late and this guy has a history of violence. for some unknown reason, but has happened before, he just attacked my friend in his kitchen. after a brief struggle and yelling my friend went for a .22 rifle by his fridge and told him to back off. the struggle continued and 2 shots were fired. my friend believes one hit his own foot and the other hit the guy's shoulder and he promptly stopped attacking.

my friend called 911, relayed what had happened and the police (this is in indy) showed up. of course he was cuffed an the guy was sent to the hospital. the responding officers questioned him and asked about other firearms in the house. he told them everything and the police accounted for all but one.

a detective shows up about an hour later and the responding officers tell the detective (listening distance) that it looks like a clear case of self-defense. more questioning and tape recording by the detective. my friend started worrying because he had one pistol missing. *turns out the guy that attacked him found the pistol, attacked him with it in his possession and while hovering over the sink after being shot he tossed it on the counter behind some pots and pans.

story gets sad here... the detective confiscates ALL firearms in the house and they all leave with a business card. my friend calls me in a panic to tell me what happened. i asked him if they left an inventory list of what they took and he said 'no'. i asked what the detective's name was and he said the guy left an IPD card with a switchboard number on it - no name, no case number. i tell him to find a lawyer asap cuz **** is gonna hit the fan. he finds one that day (it's sunday) and the guy has access to a computer system where he finds out that he will be charged with criminal wrecklessness in the morning. next day his lawyer works with the prosecutor's office to NOT issue an bench warrant so he is not embarrassed at work. he and his lawyer meet at the courthouse where he is processed, arraigned and released. the other guy had a completely different story of events, drew a significant number on a BAC test, and he has a wrap sheet 13 pages long. prosecutor's office wants to pursue because this is 2wks after the pacers shot up Club Rio and they were charged with the same and it's election time.

police never did return any of his calls, he never got his firearms back, and they eventually dropped the case because they could not get the "victim" to show up for any court-appointed interviews. but it was the prosecutor's viewpoint of it being better to lose a case in court than to drop a case because it shows they filed charges w/o thinking things through.

 

[bwframe]

Whew, whole lotta lessons to be learned from that one. Thanks again.

 

[Fenway]

I think this is one of the most important threads on this site. I'm following it with interest.