Marines introductory combat pistol training

[churchmouse]

yep. The "evil" serpa

I have many different holsters and always put the "Evil" serpa on my belt. If not smart enough to run one of them maybe consider another hobby.

 

[the1kidd03]

My nephew is stationed at 8th & I...

They're down at Q all the time test firing everything they repair.

Yep. I thought about going into that MOS just because of my love for guns, technical ability, and I already dabbled in gunsmithing anyway. But, I was already leaving a technical career to enlist. So, for me joining wasn't about a job skill as it was other things.

 

[the1kidd03]

I have many different holsters and always put the "Evil" serpa on my belt. If not smart enough to run one of them maybe consider another hobby.

Agreed. Yet, there are a LOT of LE agencies which ban them for their officers.

Granted, that Marine in the video appeared to be a SNCO. So, he gets little benefits of better gear or could have been using his personal gear. Younger Marines may not always get the bettr stuff issued or be permitted to use personal gear. It just depends on a lot of things.

 

[the1kidd03]

Watching those videos reminds me of how much use those pistols get put through. Some were so worn they appear to be stainless steel. Yet, they still functioned flawlessly. Why they're one of my favorite pistols. I bought a heavily used one when I got back. Had to replace a few parts in it, but they are easy to find, plentiful and inexpensive.

 

[Indy_Guy_77]

Watching those videos reminds me of how much use those pistols get put through. Some were so worn they appear to be stainless steel. Yet, they still functioned flawlessly. Why they're one of my favorite pistols. I bought a heavily used one when I got back. Had to replace a few parts in it, but they are easy to find, plentiful and inexpensive.

And my nephew and coworkers HATE THEM... LOL

 

[IndianaResident]

Yes, the high tang grip, thumbs forward isosceles is the standard basics they teach for pistol. Armorers work alongside the PMIs and other range MOSs quite a bit, so it's certainly a feasible situation/story. I assisted some PMIs on rifle range a couple times too. I'd have no reason not to believe it. Keeping in mind that he may not actually be "teaching" a class rather than just assisting in critiquing Marines in the training, but even that's not impossible. Doing things outside of your specific MOS is not uncommon, it's just not "preferred" I guess you could say. As long as you're knowledgeable/capable of doing the job then, sure.

If I remember correctly, Quantico...or somewhere in that region of the country's bases, is the home of the firearms research and/or training development group. Last I knew, they were heavily focused on constantly improving pistol training, and firearms training overall, to make it much more realistic. I think they were actually testing/considering the merits of competition style training to improve fast paced manipulations. They do it now sort of, just not in a timed fashion really like competitions. I tried to find an article on this, but couldn't dig it up quickly.

Anyhow, that again is my point in posting this mostly; to demonstrate the military is not as behind the times as they were decades ago.

Quantico has the non-specific equipment research center. I think its more focused on field gear and radios, but I don't know anything about the total scope of their interests. I do know they test it on the enlisted instructors though.
Crane Naval base has a huge multi-service weapons R&D group.

When I was taught pistol shooting in the Marines it was by a Gunny who had been to "gunfighter's" coach's course, a Division school out west. He taught a thumbs forward, weak hand rotated forward and locked shooting style. More isosceles stance in keeping with the tradition of squaring your plates and your weapon with the enemy.

 

[the1kidd03]

And my nephew and coworkers HATE THEM... LOL

I hear that a lot from armorers. If I had to guess I'd say it's because they end up replacing a lot of parts which would make their job pretty monotonous. But, I'm just speculating.

Most grunts or DA guys I've known or talked to tend to like them more. It's certainly more of a mix in opinion within the combat arms MOS than it is the armory MOSs. Hence, why I make such a speculation.

 

[the1kidd03]

Quantico has the non-specific equipment research center. I think its more focused on field gear and radios, but I don't know anything about the total scope of their interests. I do know they test it on the enlisted instructors though.
Crane Naval base has a huge multi-service weapons R&D group.

When I was pistol shooting by the Marines it was by a Gunny who had been to "gunfighter's" coach's course, a Division school out west. He taught a thumbs forward, weak hand rotated forward and locked shooting style. More isosceles stance in keeping with the tradition of squaring your plates and your weapon with the enemy.

Yeah, they have a variety of schools and research groups. I know they focus a lot on training development from somewhere around the Quantico area. I believe that's the HQ of the training development group and competitive shooting teams as well.

Sounds about right. Everything is squared off in the chest with an offset step/stance to ensure balance if the fight gets close.

 

[theblackknight]

Don't put much stock in that video. It's a marketing/PR video. Made specifically to attract attention. That's not the end all of pistol training in the Corps.

Actually, outside of of High Risk Personnel course(of which .000000000000000000000001 of the cream corn actually attends if it still exists) and the stuff 0372's do, that is pretty much it. The only active duty guy's that ever really seemed to have any skill with a pistol outside of those who shoot USPSA on their own are the SRT field MP dudes because they would actually dryfire with their work gear and did it contructivley.

 

[the1kidd03]

Actually, outside of of High Risk Personnel course(of which .000000000000000000000001 of the cream corn actually attends if it still exists) and the stuff 0372's do, that is pretty much it. The only active duty guy's that ever really seemed to have any skill with a pistol outside of those who shoot USPSA on their own are the SRT field MP dudes because they would actually dryfire with their work gear and did it contructivley.

That's it for structured, widespread training which is received by the majority. Units can conduct any further training they wish at their level however depending on a few things.

Most grunts I know take the job seriously and even enjoy shooting. So, they don't merely stop at doing the admin level of training. The bags do, for whatever reason they have for lack of motivation in their duties/job, but most take it seriously enough to shoot well and conduct further training that's not regimented by HQ.

Of course, if they have a bag NCO or SNCO, then doing any further training will be incredibly difficult to accomplish too.

 

[captcarl]

In reply to the SERPA it appears 27k were purchased by the marines in 2011 (sourced info from a firearms article online) and are being issued/used. Military Times' GearScout Details Serpa Holster Issues | The Truth About Guns

 

[theblackknight]

That's it for structured, widespread training which is received by the majority. Units can conduct any further training they wish at their level however depending on a few things.

LOL were you gonna get the ammo from to do non HQ aproved training on base ranges?

 

[Killion]

At first...I thought those videos were in slow motion. I can't believe how slow they are at drawing the gun and firing one shot!

 

[the1kidd03]

At first...I thought those videos were in slow motion. I can't believe how slow they are at drawing the gun and firing one shot!

That's why it's titled "introductory." All Marines combative arms training starts out going through the motions, count by count, slowly. They progress their way up in speed through dozens if not hundreds of repetitions. This engrains those basic manipulations in them. I guess sort of falling in line with the "caveman" mantra, if you've been following the other thread. Then they start working those movements into live fire while moving. Between it all, they likely have thousands of repetitions in. A day on the range, even for an entire unit to run through, you would still get an easy 400 rounds per day in if not more.

Like I said in a previous post, one of those videos is very obviously a marketing gimmick. It was developed to "advertise" their new firearms manual of arms to old dogs.

 

[Killion]

oh I see

 

[the1kidd03]

LOL were you gonna get the ammo from to do non HQ aproved training on base ranges?

Getting approval for ammo is relatively easy. You can even get approval for that to attend civilian courses as a small unit. That doesn't mean HQ has vetted the course, it simply means they are happy to encourage Marines to seek additional training. I think you may be blurring the lines between what is considered training. Training is more than just what is approved by HQ to be taught to any Marine.


Regardless, my point is, as I said, that's pretty much it for regimented training; meaning training which HQ has developed and required for ANY/EVERY Marine who may need it. Each smaller unit can introduce any level of further training they wish. HQ doesn't have to verify all training. Only that which the majority of Marines attend or are likely to attend. This is where specific schools and courses are developed.

If the guidelines you're considering (ammo/range approval for HQ approved training curriculums) were the end all of training in the MC, then there would be significant differences in current firearms training practices throughout the country. Joint training between LAPD and Marines for example would have never happened by your definition, but it happens routinely. They train on our ranges, and we train at their facilities at times as well.

The Corps doesn't have limitless money. Being under the department of the navy, they have a considerably lower budget to accomplish everything than most branches. That budget is allocated to different things and then divided up around the various divisions/units based on what was each of their best guesses as to what they'll need. It then gets re-evaluated regularly for the next budget. Considering the lower budget, they don't dedicate a great deal to in depth training for every single Marine. They try to get by giving only the necessary level of training to those who will use it. They develop training based on what they think is useful, and if it needs updated, but then it is only given to those who they think will need it/benefit from it. 2/3 of these videos are mostly depicting that basic level of HQ regimented pistol training. The other video clearly demonstrates where additional training is implemented at the smaller unit level based on their needs/mission.

Range and ammo use aren't extremely demanding in terms of "how it's used" so much as rather scheduling its use. My entire point is, that training in the Marine Corps does not end at the official courses/schools they put you through. There's even a few videos out there floating around of a platoon of Marines going to a civilian developed training course, with their military ammo, gear, and weapons. Do you think HQ sent someone to that course first to "approve it?" That doesn't really happen. They can only invest so much in developing official training courses and then so much on giving it to Marines.