LEO, Attorneys question......or anyone else.

[CHCRandy]

I can't say much or get into many details....but the wife and I had depositions a few weeks ago.

Attorneys, after the depositions.....made a point to tell me that State Law requires a detective to come to the scene of an unnatural death where a cause of death is being investigated.

My question to those who know.......is there a law that requires this? I have searched high and low on unsocial media and can find no such "law". This has really been bugging me. I keep asking myself....why they told me this. If this law exists, can someone point me to it?

Thanks!

 

[BehindBlueI's]

IC 36-2-14-6 is probably what they are referencing. Not exactly a detective required to respond, some agencies don't even have detectives, but LE is required to support the coroner:

Sec. 6. (a) Whenever the coroner is notified that a person in the county:

(1) has died from violence;

(2) has died by casualty;

(3) has died when apparently in good health;

(4) has died in an apparently suspicious, unusual, or unnatural manner; or

(5) has been found dead;

the coroner shall, before the scene of the death is disturbed, notify a law enforcement agency having jurisdiction in that area. The agency shall assist the coroner in determining the cause, manner, and mechanism of death.

It doesn't specifically spell out an in-person response, but I don't know how an agency would fulfill the requirement of the IC without sending someone to the scene. I suppose one could argue if the coroner response was 100% sure and didn't need assistance, perhaps an after the fact follow up would suffice, but I've not seen anyone argue anything on the law one way or the other.

 

[BE Mike]

I don't know about now, but back in the day, Florida LEO's were kept busy answering death calls. All deaths were investigated in person unless a personal physician was willing to sign a death certificate. Often the physician would agree over the phone. Sorry that I didn't answer your question.

 

[CHCRandy]

IC 36-2-14-6 is probably what they are referencing. Not exactly a detective required to respond, some agencies don't even have detectives, but LE is required to support the coroner:



It doesn't specifically spell out an in-person response, but I don't know how an agency would fulfill the requirement of the IC without sending someone to the scene. I suppose one could argue if the coroner response was 100% sure and didn't need assistance, perhaps an after the fact follow up would suffice, but I've not seen anyone argue anything on the law one way or the other.

Thank you very much. I bet this is what they were speaking of. IMPD did send uniformed officers and they did secure the scene before Coroner arrived but then the Coroner botched it by saying she was found in her own residence, when in fact she was found abandoned in another persons locked residence. Nobody knew this mistake was made until 3 months later.

Let's suppose this law is not followed.......is that a criminal or civil violation? Thanks again.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Let's suppose this law is not followed.......is that a criminal or civil violation? Thanks again.

Neither. It's admin code. Outside my wheel house what penalties are for violating, if any. Mistake in fact is unlikely to qualify, no law requires perfection in that arena, and nothing in the code says "detective". That would be an impossible requirement, which is why I mentioned some departments don't have the luxury of manpower to have dedicated detectives. A uniformed response would qualify as written, even if a successful argument was made that it mandates a physical response at all.

 

[Creedmoor]

When I did hospice on my father, when he was gone I called up his hospice nurse and she called the crematory and they sent a van to pick him up.
No coroner or LE was involved. 6 years ago, Florida also.

I don't know about now, but back in the day, Florida LEO's were kept busy answering death calls. All deaths were investigated in person unless a personal physician was willing to sign a death certificate. Often the physician would agree over the phone. Sorry that I didn't answer your question.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

When I did hospice on my father, when he was gone I called up his hospice nurse and she called the crematory and they sent a van to pick him up.
No coroner or LE was involved. 6 years ago, Florida also.

Part of the hospice care is having a doctor who will sign the death certificate. That eliminates any sort of 'non-natural' or 'suspicious' clauses that mandate a coroner/LE response. Functionally the same as dying in the hospital or nursing home of a long term illness/known disease.

Suicides, overdoses, industrial/agricultural accidents, that sort of often not criminal but also not 'natural' thing is what's being referred to in the code.

 

[Creedmoor]

Part of the hospice care is having a doctor who will sign the death certificate. That eliminates any sort of 'non-natural' or 'suspicious' clauses that mandate a coroner/LE response. Functionally the same as dying in the hospital or nursing home of a long term illness/known disease.

Suicides, overdoses, industrial/agricultural accidents, that sort of often not criminal but also not 'natural' thing is what's being referred to in the code.

I understand, it was just a bit surprising when the hospice nurse told me how it worked, all over the phone.
Box of drugs is already in the fridge, start with this every two hours and then every hour.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I understand, it was just a bit surprising when the hospice nurse told me how it worked, all over the phone.

Hospice is awesome. Obviously the situation requiring it sucks, but it's role in turning that incredibly ****** and draining circumstance into as easy and comfortable one for everyone involved is awesome. The nurses who can deal with that environment are simply incredible humans with a depth of empathy reserves most of us can't touch.

 

[Creedmoor]

Hospice is awesome. Obviously the situation requiring it sucks, but it's role in turning that incredibly ****** and draining circumstance into as easy and comfortable one for everyone involved is awesome. The nurses who can deal with that environment are simply incredible humans with a depth of empathy reserves most of us can't touch.

I have done it twice now, its interesting each time.

 

[CHCRandy]

Thank you guys for your input...it makes it easier to understand.

My sister is a RN and works hospice.......not sure how she deals with it. She grows so attached to her patients, knowing everyone of them is dying, and a lot of them are younger and veterans. Really saddens her, but she swears she does it to help the families who are involved understand and navigate a very tough time. She is good at her job and she has a ton of compassion.

 

[BE Mike]

When I did hospice on my father, when he was gone I called up his hospice nurse and she called the crematory and they sent a van to pick him up.
No coroner or LE was involved. 6 years ago, Florida also.

Same when my father passed away while in hospice care in an Indiana nursing home a few years ago. When hospice care is involved, I'm sure that there is no concern of foul play.

 

[HoughMade]

...Let's suppose this law is not followed.......is that a criminal or civil violation? Thanks again.

*** I am not giving legal advice*** Seek legal counsel to get definitive direction.

However, a little about how the law works. For something to be a criminal violation there has to be, flat out, a statute that makes the matter a crime and sets forth potential penalties. There's no such thing as "Someone didn't follow the law and it's not a criminal law, but it's a crime." If the statute does not explicitly make it a crime, it is not. I.C. 36-2-14-6 appears to not have a provision making violations a crime.

As for a civil cause of action, some regulations or statutes specifically create civil penalties or state that they create a cause of action. I.C. 36-2-14-6 appears to not have a provision explicitly creating a cause of action.

There is a rule of law called negligence per se which basically states that violations of a law can be negligence. However, there are restrictions on this concept.

"The unexcused or unjustified violation of a duty proscribed by a statute or ordinance constitutes negligence per se if the statute or ordinance is intended to protect the class of persons in which the plaintiff is included and to protect against the risk of the type of harm which has occurred as a result of its violation. "

Am. United Life Ins. Co. v. Douglas, 808 N.E.2d 690, 704 (Ind. Ct. App. 2004). I think that where I.C. 36-2-14-6 is concerned, the issue would be that the statute is intended to instruct a coroner of his duties, and other of their duty to assist the coroner. It would not seem to be intended to protect any class of persons against any specific type of harm. Therefore, I do not see negligence per se applying.

That being said, there may be another route to civil liability, but it is not clear to me what that would be (Negligent infliction of emotional distress??? Doubtful, but maybe).

***This is not legal advice to anyone*** I simply was discussing my understanding of some Indiana law. Seek counsel for specific advice.

 

[CHCRandy]

*** I am not giving legal advice*** Seek legal counsel to get definitive direction.

However, a little about how the law works. For something to be a criminal violation there has to be, flat out, a statute that makes the matter a crime and sets forth potential penalties. There's no such thing as "Someone didn't follow the law and it's not a criminal law, but it's a crime." If the statute does not explicitly make it a crime, it is not. I.C. 36-2-14-6 appears to not have a provision making violations a crime.

As for a civil cause of action, some regulations or statutes specifically create civil penalties or state that they create a cause of action. I.C. 36-2-14-6 appears to not have a provision explicitly creating a cause of action.

There is a rule of law called negligence per se which basically states that violations of a law can be negligence. However, there are restrictions on this concept.

"The unexcused or unjustified violation of a duty proscribed by a statute or ordinance constitutes negligence per se if the statute or ordinance is intended to protect the class of persons in which the plaintiff is included and to protect against the risk of the type of harm which has occurred as a result of its violation. "

Am. United Life Ins. Co. v. Douglas, 808 N.E.2d 690, 704 (Ind. Ct. App. 2004). I think that where I.C. 36-2-14-6 is concerned, the issue would be that the statute is intended to instruct a coroner of his duties, and other of their duty to assist the coroner. It would not seem to be intended to protect any class of persons against any specific type of harm. Therefore, I do not see negligence per se applying.

That being said, there may be another route to civil liability, but it is not clear to me what that would be (Negligent infliction of emotional distress??? Doubtful, but maybe).

***This is not legal advice to anyone*** I simply was discussing my understanding of some Indiana law. Seek counsel for specific advice.

Thank you very much for your input. Much appreciated.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I'll also chime in for the merits of Hospice care. I agree those nurses are cream of the crop. I dont know how they do it either. Im sure its via compartmentalization to know that this human WILL die on them and that its all part of God's plan.

And for the sake of the family, I'm grateful for how smooth it flows. Grandma passed in her bed at home on an eventful Sunday AM in May. I got the call while listening to the pre race festivities of the 500 in 2008. And it was perfect timing. I vividly recall crying on my wife's shoulder listening to taps and Back Home Again in Indiana. But I digress.

Mom called the hospice nurse, workers came and collected her body and it was all over. No uniformed folks asking questions and taking pics, etc. It was a huge blessing.

 

[Nazgul]

My former wife was an RN and worked with end of life patients as did our oldest daughter. Both very caring to them when they were struggling.

Wife died of cancer in 2007, did not get the chance for hospice. She was in the ICU on a ventilator and it went fast, maybe 5 hours. The ICU nurses were outstanding, very professional.

Don

 

[KG1]

My mother was on home hospice after my sister, and I were her caretakers for a few years. For the most part everything went well but they really let us down when she had passed at home at about 11;30 pm on the evening of her passing. in Nov. 2020.

We had been instructed to contact hospice in the event of her passing per protocol and they would have an RN come out and confirm the death and coordinate with the funeral home that was pre-chosen by us to transport her to the funeral home.

Here's where everything went off the rails. Hospice was called but there was no answer. We repeatedly tried to contact them but there was still no answer. We contacted the funeral home hoping that they could help us do something and we were able to speak with the funeral director. He was gracious enough to come to our home and try to help us contact hospice. There really wasn't anything he could do on his own because of strict hospice protocol. We couldn't even call 911 or anything.

Finally we were able to contact another affiliated hospice location all the way down near Indy and explain the situation at which time they were able to contact our local hospice provider in NWI thru other means and they then contacted us and came to our home.

They even screwed up and contacted the wrong funeral home but luckily, we had already contacted the right one so they were on scene when the hospice RN finally showed up. Needless to say it was a harrowing experience to say the least. They really dropped the ball. The excuse they gave was that someone forgot to switch the phones over to the night service so the RN on call could be notified. and that was supposedly the reason why our phone calls were not getting received.

In saying this I'm not trying to disparage anyone from hospice care because I think they provide a valuable service overall to help ease the burden. We didn't have any issues with the RN's or the care staff. It was more of an administrative issue, and we let them know that we were not happy about what had transpired. In our particular instance they let us down when we needed them to be there the most.