Is 223 big enough?

[warhawk77]

Exactly. All over the internet, you see guys who say that they'll live off the land after a major SHTF event. Truth be told, after a couple of months of people starving, there won't be anything as small as a squirrel left alive, much less a deer. Deer were wiped out in Indiana by the 20th century, and there are a heck of a lot more people living here now than then.

I agree there will be very few animals after a few months. But I also believe most of the people that plan to live off the land can't do it as it is much harder then people think.

 

[Cerberus]

There are too many variables about bullet impact on target to give any "always" answers. Just about anything can be killed with about anything, unfortunately variable come into play which muddy the waters quite a bit. I have a very good friend, we've friends since our youth. He is an excellent shot and is just as excellent hunting. He does not miss shots, because he chooses his shots carefully, learned that from his father. During a hunt a few years ago, he placed a shot on a good sized buck, saw the impact and knew it was a good hit. The deer moved about 70 yards into a grass field and layed down, he waits about 30 minutes for it to die then goes to claim it. The buck takes off when he approaches, and stops about 100 yds away. My buddy gets a good support on a round hay bail and hits him again. Repeat this scenario 3 more times. He finally puts the killing shot on the buck a few hours later near a steep drop off. When the buck is finally dead all 6 shots were in 4" and all in what should have been the fatal zone. Rifle- Remington 700, Cartridge- .30-06 with 200 gr bullets. 30 cal don't always mean instant death, nothing does outside a direct hit with a nuke.

PS. I love .30 cal, especially .308 Win.

 

[teddy12b]

Actually SHTF is the best time to practice "one shot, one kill." Multiple shots and having to track game any distance is the best way to advertise your presence and allow people to get a fix on direction.

If you want true TEOTWAWKI hunting, you want a suppressed weapon you know how to use.

I agree with what you're saying 100%. I'm not advocating mag dumps on deer. What I was trying to get at by saying "Don't get me wrong, make your first shot count, just don't be shy about trying about as many follow up shots as it takes." was that if you do place your one perfect shot and the deer doesn't go down or something looks like it went wrong then by all means shoot again and again. Once silence is broken, it's broken. I nice suppressed bolt action would be the ticket post SHTF.

 

[sloughfoot]

This. Inuit subsistence hunters regularly take game, up to and including, polar bear with 223. The caliber is plenty, its the skill with the guy on the trigger that matters.

They use the Mini-14. Totally reliable and plenty accurate enough. This is why I will always own one.

 

[bkflyer]

How about getting an AR type weapon in .308? I wouldn't go polar bear hunting with a .308 but just about anything else would be fine.

 

[teddy12b]

How about getting an AR type weapon in .308? I wouldn't go polar bear hunting with a .308 but just about anything else would be fine.

The only problem with a 308 AR is that they are heavy. You'll be carrying your rifle more than you'll be shooting it (hopefully) and the extra weight will get old fast. It's the only downside to the 308 ARs that I can think of.

 

[NealWright]

I always love this question ... and think this answer puts in perfect perspective:

20yrs ago, all hogs that we butchered on the farm, were simply shot with a 22LR! They ALL are big enough to kill.

BTW ... that's also a good lesson for your kido's. Just because lil' Johnny doesn't shoot the "big" gun yet, they still need to be careful.

 

[ATOMonkey]

Exactly. All over the internet, you see guys who say that they'll live off the land after a major SHTF event. Truth be told, after a couple of months of people starving, there won't be anything as small as a squirrel left alive, much less a deer. Deer were wiped out in Indiana by the 20th century, and there are a heck of a lot more people living here now than then.

I'd wager there are fewer people who know how to hunt, butcher, and farm though.

 

[Yeah]

If you read around enough you'll find out about all kinds of voodoo spells you'll need to successfully kill a deer with a 0.224" bullet. Most all of them written by people who don't kill things with any bullets at all, let alone 0.224s.

As always what matters most is the construction of the bullet you pick, and its velocity at impact. If you get those 2 things right you are most of the way there. If that bullet also happens to have a good BC you are yet closer. Shot placement is of course critical, but that is like saying you need to locate a deer to shoot in the first place. You of course cannot shoot a big enough bullet or burn enough powder per pull to miss vitals.

So with a good bullet a 223 Rem is enough for a deer and probably one standing behind it if you can line them up. I don't like to lug heavy rifles after game, so I typically avoid ARs and go with a 223AI and 75 AMax bullets. 62 TSX are great when you have to AR.

When doubting 223 Rem's game taking prowess consider:

felled by the pictured 22 KHornet from 150 yards away. Granted that was in Australia where gravity affects a bullet in the opposite direction (from our perspective), but we would likely see performance in the same ballpark. Another 400 fps and a much tougher bullet can't help but hedge the deal in the shooter's favor.

 

[dtkw]

Bank to OP question. Yes, it's big enough if you have DRT Frangible Ammo. It was featured in the April 2011 issue of the American Rifleman magazine. The author used a 60 gr. DRT frangible to kill a buck without any problem.

 

[Yeah]

That is hilarious.

 

[rw496]

I have a DPMS .308 AR style great rifle and round, but real heavy. If by SHTF you mean combat against other people 223 sucks..ask any combat vet. Shot placement is great if you're in a tree stand, but if it's combat in a rapidly changing environment not so easy to do. I read a great article recently about the terminal ballistics of 223, 7.62x39, and 6.8 spc. To paraphrase it: 223 sucks, particularly against low body mass individuals(i.e. crack heads or Somalians) in barrels less than 16 inches or velocities under 1900fps., or any other circumstance that might cause the bullet not to yaw and create the damage it is supposed to theoretically do. I am buying the LWRC 6.8 spc rifle

 

[Cerberus]

I have a DPMS .308 AR style great rifle and round, but real heavy. If by SHTF you mean combat against other people 223 sucks..ask any combat vet. Shot placement is great if you're in a tree stand, but if it's combat in a rapidly changing environment not so easy to do. I read a great article recently about the terminal ballistics of 223, 7.62x39, and 6.8 spc. To paraphrase it: 223 sucks, particularly against low body mass individuals(i.e. crack heads or Somalians) in barrels less than 16 inches or velocities under 1900fps., or any other circumstance that might cause the bullet not to yaw and create the damage it is supposed to theoretically do. I am buying the LWRC 6.8 spc rifle

I had no complaints. Never met any others that used it that actually had any complaints either. In fact it seems gun rags and the internet are the only places where .223 sucks. Good thing the military uses 5.56 with a velocity at about 3025fps or so.

 

[Zoub]

Exactly. All over the internet, you see guys who say that they'll live off the land after a major SHTF event. Truth be told, after a couple of months of people starving, there won't be anything as small as a squirrel left alive, much less a deer. Deer were wiped out in Indiana by the 20th century, and there are a heck of a lot more people living here now than then.

Most people really don't know much about the history of the Whitetail deer numbers.

On the other hand there will be a LOT of people and people are protein. A .223 works just fine on humans, same as deer.

 

[Zoub]

I have a DPMS .308 AR style great rifle and round, but real heavy. If by SHTF you mean combat against other people 223 sucks..ask any combat vet. Shot placement is great if you're in a tree stand, but if it's combat in a rapidly changing environment not so easy to do. I read a great article recently about the terminal ballistics of 223, 7.62x39, and 6.8 spc. To paraphrase it: 223 sucks, particularly against low body mass individuals(i.e. crack heads or Somalians) in barrels less than 16 inches or velocities under 1900fps., or any other circumstance that might cause the bullet not to yaw and create the damage it is supposed to theoretically do. I am buying the LWRC 6.8 spc rifle

Wow, what a load of crap on a lot of levels.

Remember, we are not bound by the geneva convention. When using a gun to kill it is all about transfer of ft/lbs TO the target. If a bullet exits the target, the retained ft/lbs in the round are wasted because they did not transfer to the target. We don't have to use FMJ and frankly should not. That goes for hunitng or defense.

As for the yaw thing, they still pitch that around like it is gospel. That is not how the .223 works. Not in huting or defense. One of the most lethal combos you can use is an SBR with larger slower moving rounds that are of the proper design for your intended target.

 

[teddy12b]

Don't listen to Zoub, I hear he sucks with a shotgun.

 

[rw496]

Pretty good article. Check it out and make up your own mind. There is certainly not a shortage of knowledgeable people on this website either.
Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

[met eng gun nut]

Ar - 15 in 556 and a large caliber upper, saves on space, I have an r-15 in .223 and a .450 upper capable of 200 yds on any north american game. hunting in missouri the 450 took an 8pnter making the deer drop like a rock

 

[langb29]

Couple days ago I was deer hunting in Wisconsin with my AR, legal there. Standing on the ground, a doe came running to within 20 feet of me and stopped, facing me. There was one redbrush plant between us, so I had the choice of waiting for it to clear the brush and take a running shot or shoot through the brush at the stationary deer. I took the standing shot, because I figured the distance was so short that the deflection from hitting a branch would be irrelevant. Branches are all less than 1/4 inch diameter... The thing buckled right there on the ground, flopped to one side, then got up and ran. My brother, who was a couple hundred yards away, saw it coming and saw a large exit wound on it's side, with blood coming out. He figured it would drop any time, but it didn't. It ran at least 600 yds, as far as we tracked blood, but we lost the blood trail. After almost 20 years of hunting, I never lost a deer, it really bothers me. We spent all afternoon and part of the night tracking this thing. Shot placement had something to do with it, but I think it hit about where the shoulder meets the neck, inside a couple inches, but I doubt the bullet entered the ribcage. It was a quick decision, quick shot situation, and I'm still trying to figure out what happened.
Now, here's what I learned. I normally hunt with a 270, so that decision to shoot through brush was probably acceptable with a 270, but maybe not the 223. Keep in mind, 20 ft away total, the deer was only 10 ft behind the brush. Any further, I wouldn't risk it with any caliber.
Also, I'm using 55 grain 223 rounds, I was trying to match the ammo I was using for target shooting. Maybe I need to step it up to a higher grain?
Anyone have suggestions before I trade my upper in for a 6.8?
Anyone had a similar situation?

 

[Yeah]

What 55 grain bullet? Regardless, in that situation at that distance I'd have head shot it.

With a SAMMI 223 Rem I would suggest using a 62 TSX to put a hole in something important. They expand reliably, retain weight reliably, and will put two holes in a whitetail longways. Which is what you want, energy being meaningless. But despite their inherent capability you'll have to hit something the deer needs to live, like a lung or both or it's heart or some pressure side plumbing. Any part of the CNS system. Or get close enough to any of that to damage it. Miss it and it doesn't matter how much powder you burned to do it.

69 Scenars and 75 Amax also do well against deer, but their length chokes AR mags. There may be some others...52 Amax is a candidate but I haven't put one in a deer yet and haven't heard from anyone who has.