Interesting Revolver Behavior?

[Bassat]

I have been on a revolver kick of late. Recent purchases: S&W 442, S&W 686+ 4", Charter Arms Off Duty. Sidenote: My CA Off Duty continues to perform admirably after a trip to Customer Service.
Anyhoo, I was getting in my dry-fire practice, and full and partial reload practice with my Off Duty this morning, when I noticed this 'behavior'. If/when I do NOT allow full reset, I can make the cylinder lock up (pulling harder on the trigger does nothing)... temporarily. I can also short stroke the reset and make the gun advance the cylinder WITHOUT actuating the trigger. In both cases the fix is quite simple: allow the trigger to fully reset. Both situations are easily repeatable. So is the fix.

I've seen many Taurus (maybe others) reviews where the cylinder locks up, or spins to the next round without firing. That got me to wondering about the 442 and 686+. So I tried the same maneuver with both. I only had a few minutes to play with them, but it was butt-simple to get both S&W guns to advance the cylinder without engaging the hammer. Fire, short-stroke the reset, pull again and all I get is cylinder advance, WITH NO HAMMER MOVEMENT. Again, this was easily repeatable on both the S&Ws. I could not make the cylinder lock on either of them, and the fix was the same as with the CA, allow complete reset (release the trigger fully).

I don't think any of my revolvers are defective. They only misbehave when I don't properly control the trigger. It crosses my mind that a lot of the reported problems with some revolvers may be user error. Any opinions?

 

[gregkl]

I just tried this on the only revolver I own which is a 617. No matter what I did, if I moved the trigger, the hammer moved.

When you say you are getting the cylinder to advance without hammer movement, are you saying the cylinder is moving on its own with the trigger pull? Or are you advancing the cylinder with your hand?

I am a visual person, so it's hard at times to understand processes without seeing them.

 

[jcj54]

This is why DA revolver shooters were trained to fully allow the trigger to reset. My 1917 S&W will do the same thing if the trigger is not allowed to fully reset.

 

[Bosshoss]

Short stroking the trigger sometimes doesn't allow the Double Action sear to reset all the way giving you those results.
There is some modifications that makes the reset more forgiving but that is a bandaid for the real problem and that is not letting the trigger off all the way.
I used to do the modifications for customers(competitors) that had a problem with short stroking () but just some time dryfiring can solve the problem and is cheaper.

 

[Bassat]

Clarify: cylinder rotates with trigger pull, hammer does not move.

 

[Bosshoss]

Clarify: cylinder rotates with trigger pull, hammer does not move.

If you look the hammer actually does move. The hammer is always under spring tension and when the sear fails to reset when you pull the trigger again the hammer moves forward some as the rebound slide is pushed out from under the hammer. You are correct that the hammer doesn't move rearward. The cylinder does rotate when this happens.
If the sear isn't fitted properly, and yes this happens quite often even from the factory and sear reset is always something I check when doing a trigger job.

Here is a little revolver knowledge for those that care.
The mainsping whether coil or leaf controls most of the DA pull weight and reliability in regards to setting off primers.
The rebound spring controls trigger return and has a impact on the single action trigger pull weight.
Spring kits usually replace both and some have several rebound springs.
You have to balance the springs so the DA works and the trigger still returns 100% of the time.
Replacing springs is a easy way to make the revolver feel better but it is NOT a trigger/action job.
I smooth and polish all the moving parts and make several modifications the makes the trigger smoother and allows for lighter springs with a good trigger return.
With everything done to the action and full power stock mainspring and stock length strain screw and a slightly lower weight rebound spring I usually knock about 4 pounds off the DA pull weight on a S&W K,L,N frame. This is all done with a reduction in friction and not springs. It will set off any primer it would when stock. Competition guns can run way lighter DA pull weights especially if you run Federal primers and are careful reloading them.
On a carry gun or range gun I run the full length strain screw and it is ALWAYS bottomed out like it is supposed to be.
I don't care for the ribbed mainsprings that aftermarket kits or S&W performance Center guns have and always replace them with the flat spring on any action job.
Competition guns I bend the (stock)mainspring and put a arch in it to get the weight where I want it and sometimes I have to shorten the strain screw a little to fine tune it.
Every revolver is different and sometimes a small change will give a big result and dozens of things can affect the pull weight that has nothing to do with springs or even action parts.
Just some thoughts since we were talking about trigger return and short stroking the trigger.

 

[russc2542]

My ruger LCR .327 has a very tactile and audible first reset where it'll do as you describe before a second "true" reset. I've never noticed it happening on my smiths but never really tried to cause it.

 

[DRob]

Paraphrase: When the operator fails, so does the tool.

 

[92FSTech]

This is why I always leave the rebound spring alone when I work on a Smith revolver. I've tried lighter ones and hated the feel, plus the risk of failure to fully reset. With stock springs, it takes quite a bit of effort to short stroke the gun, even intentionally. They really push the trigger forward with authority.

It's also why I don't like the LCR...IMO that design is much easier to short-stroke than a Smith, and that false tactile and audible reset makes it even more likely.

 

[Bassat]

Paraphrase: When the operator fails, so does the tool.

Exactly. All three of my revolvers behave properly when I behave properly. This 'behavior' only happens when I intentionally don't allow full trigger reset.

This 'behavior' seems to happen A LOT with Taurus 856 & 605 models. Any chance that is user error? Weak spring(s)? I'd consider an 856 (6 rounds w/3" barrel is hard to find) except for the prevalence of this specific problem.

 

[Bosshoss]

As long as the trigger is returning fully forward on it's own it is not a spring problem it is the operator error.
If too light a rebound spring for the mainspring tension and sometimes with a dirty gun the trigger will not overcome the mainspring tension and won't go fully forward and will have to be physically pushed forward. This needs fixed or adjusted.
If shooter is just not letting trigger return all the way then that is not a gun problem.

BTW autoloaders have this same problem, their trigger has to return to the reset point to fire a second shot.
If you have been to a match and heard the term Trigger Freeze that is the same as Short Stroking a revolver.

As mentioned above the Ruger LCR's are known for having a slightly lighter trigger pull than a J frame Smith but they do that at the expense of a weaker reset.

Their is nothing wrong with a lighter reset if you have good trigger discipline and technique.

 

[Bassat]

As long as the trigger is returning fully forward on it's own it is not a spring problem it is the operator error.
If too light a rebound spring for the mainspring tension and sometimes with a dirty gun the trigger will not overcome the mainspring tension and won't go fully forward and will have to be physically pushed forward. This needs fixed or adjusted.
If shooter is just not letting trigger return all the way then that is not a gun problem.

BTW autoloaders have this same problem, their trigger has to return to the reset point to fire a second shot.
If you have been to a match and heard the term Trigger Freeze that is the same as Short Stroking a revolver.

As mentioned above the Ruger LCR's are known for having a slightly lighter trigger pull than a J frame Smith but they do that at the expense of a weaker reset.

Their is nothing wrong with a lighter reset if you have good trigger discipline and technique.

Thanks for the information. You obviously know a lot more about revolvers than I do. I just shoot 'em!

 

[Bassat]

My ruger LCR .327 has a very tactile and audible first reset where it'll do as you describe before a second "true" reset. I've never noticed it happening on my smiths but never really tried to cause it.

I got both my S&Ws to do it at the range today, but I have to be thinking about it, and do it intentionally. I've always 'ridden the reset' with my autoloaders and never had a problem.

 

[Bosshoss]

Thanks for the information. You obviously know a lot more about revolvers than I do. I just shoot 'em!

I shoot a revolver almost every weekend in competition and sometimes I switch it up and do a bottomfeeder every once in a while just to remember how much more fun the revolver is to shoot.
I do action work and repairs on revolvers to pay for the primers and bullets to shoot the matches.

 

[WebSnyper]

I've always 'ridden the reset' with my autoloaders and never had a problem.

Try riding the reset on a stock Browning Hi Power after having shot Glocks or other semi autos with a strong tactile reset and you'll experience it.

Got my triggers changed on my SA-35'S with cylinder and slide triggers as the reset was all over the place.

 

[Creedmoor]

40 years ago when using a Smith & Wesson shooting PPC, bowling pins and so on. We called it Staging the trigger, you pulled the trigger and the cylinder turned. And you got you sight picture and finished you trigger pull.

 

[woodsie57]

Im

I have been on a revolver kick of late. Recent purchases: S&W 442, S&W 686+ 4", Charter Arms Off Duty. Sidenote: My CA Off Duty continues to perform admirably after a trip to Customer Service.
Anyhoo, I was getting in my dry-fire practice, and full and partial reload practice with my Off Duty this morning, when I noticed this 'behavior'. If/when I do NOT allow full reset, I can make the cylinder lock up (pulling harder on the trigger does nothing)... temporarily. I can also short stroke the reset and make the gun advance the cylinder WITHOUT actuating the trigger. In both cases the fix is quite simple: allow the trigger to fully reset. Both situations are easily repeatable. So is the fix.

I've seen many Taurus (maybe others) reviews where the cylinder locks up, or spins to the next round without firing. That got me to wondering about the 442 and 686+. So I tried the same maneuver with both. I only had a few minutes to play with them, but it was butt-simple to get both S&W guns to advance the cylinder without engaging the hammer. Fire, short-stroke the reset, pull again and all I get is cylinder advance, WITH NO HAMMER MOVEMENT. Again, this was easily repeatable on both the S&Ws. I could not make the cylinder lock on either of them, and the fix was the same as with the CA, allow complete reset (release the trigger fully).

I don't think any of my revolvers are defective. They only misbehave when I don't properly control the trigger. It crosses my mind that a lot of the reported problems with some revolvers may be user error. Any opinioni

40 years ago when using a Smith & Wesson shooting PPC, bowling pins and so on. We called it Staging the trigger, you pulled the trigger and the cylinder turned. And you got you sight picture and finished you trigger pull.

 

[woodsie57]

I'm no gunsmith, but I think the first to thing that happens when you press the trigger, is the cylinder stop thing under the cylinder drops to allow the cylinder to move before the hand tries to rotate the cylinder. Sounds normal that the cylinder would them move freely with minimal trigger pressure.

 

[Bassat]

40 years ago when using a Smith & Wesson shooting PPC, bowling pins and so on. We called it Staging the trigger, you pulled the trigger and the cylinder turned. And you got you sight picture and finished you trigger pull.

Yep, staging is well known. But that is not how I shoot. And you ain't gonna stage doo-doo when Mr. GimmeYourWallet is in your face. Staging is the easiest way I know to mess up my groups. I remarked as much in my, "My new Charter Arms Off Duty" thread. One quick smooth pull all the way to discharge; that's how I shoot, that's how I practice. Muscle memory and all that.

 

[Creedmoor]

Yep, staging is well known. But that is not how I shoot. And you ain't gonna stage doo-doo when Mr. GimmeYourWallet is in your face. Staging is the easiest way I know to mess up my groups. I remarked as much in my, "My new Charter Arms Off Duty" thread. One quick smooth pull all the way to discharge; that's how I shoot, that's how I practice. Muscle memory and all that.

I understand, I wasn't implying one to do that.
Revolvers like S&W are much easier to do that with, when comparing to a Colt revolver.