Instructors help

[Tinman]

Ok, here's the situation, I had a new shooter (a retired lady) wander up on Monday and ask for some formal training. So I start on the fundamentals and getting her grip and trigger pull all squared away. When we get to sight alignment, she says she sees 4 rear sight dots (2 complete sets) and 2 targets when she focuses on the front sight. She had bought a laser previously to help compensate for this issue. So I go ahead and have her focus on the target and use the laser for sighting. With the laser, she is very accurate, and getting to be quite consistent (1” or less groups at 5 yards).

Obviously, she's new, and her grip, stance, and trigger are not consistent enough without some type of sighting verification.

Now comes the rub, with her eyes, she claims that there is just no way she can use the sights. I've always been of the opinion that laser alone is asking for trouble. What do you guys think? Any ideas to help out that I might have missed?

For right now, we're just going to proceed using the laser only until I can get the rest of her shooting consistent enough to work other things. Am I doing her a dis-service letting her run the laser as the only sight?

Tinman....

 

[Joe Williams]

If she can't see the sights, she can't see 'em, and you are doing the right thing by adapting to her needs.

I wonder if there is something wrong with her glasses? Though, as I age, I'm wondering myself how long till I start wanting a laser.

 

[DHolder]

I've got "no line" bi focals, messes with sight picture bad. I just blame misses on my glasses

 

[Scutter01]

I had almost the exact same problem. Big Dot sights were a huge help in that respect. I am not an expert, but that was my experience.

 

[HandK]

Have you found out witch eye is her domanate eye? If you find out what side is her domante eye you could always have her wear shooting glasses and cover the non domanate eye with paper on the inside of the lens, The other thing is teach her how to point shoot.

 

[kludge]

If you think about it for a second, she is absolutely right.

If there is one front sight there will be two targets and two rear sights (four dots)

Open both eyes, hold you finger close to your face and look at it. Obviously this will make you "crosseyed", but you will see one finger and eveything on the computer monitor will be double vision.

Now hold your finger at arms length and look at it, touch your monitor with it, now hold your finger on the opposite hand by your face... the finger close to your face will be double...

Now back away from your monitor and do the same thing... one finger close to your face, one finger at arms length, focus on the finger at arms length... two monitors and two fingers close to your face, one finger at arms length.

Your eyes can only focus in one plane at a time... eveything closer or futher away from the plane of focus will be fuzzy.

Also if you are focused with both eyes on an object (the front sight) the rear sight and the target will be fuzzy, they will also be double.

If you are shooting in bright light your pupils will be smaller and your depth of field will increase... cameras work this way too, smaller aperture, more depth of field (more things are in focus) Depth of field - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But regardless of depth of field, whatever object both eyes are "pointed at" will be single vision, and everything else will be double.

So how do you correct for this?

1. You can close one eye.
2. You can put a piece of tape on the center of the shooting glasses.
3. You can just accept it and recognize that since you were an infant you have been looking at things and pointing at them and your brain learns to ignore one of your fingers (this is where you get the concept of a dominant eye), shoot with both eyes open and focus on the target, and rely on your brain to just intrinsically "know" which set of sights to use (because when you focus on the target you will get two front sights and two rear sights, they will both be a little blurry) -- This is what I do.

It is impossible for me to "focus" with both eyes on the front sight and shoot... If you do you have to try to figure out which of the two targets to shoot. If you're right eye dominant it will be the one on the right.

Maybe some people are successful at this, I have not been. I was taught to shoot with aperture sights on a target 22 and keep both eyes focused on the target. I have not been able to "unlearn this" and I suspect that many people can't do it either. My brain has no problem figuring out which of the two sets of pistol sights to put on the target, but I haven't been able to figure out which target to shoot at if I focused on the front sight...

I decided long ago that if I'm the victim of an attact I will be focused with both eyes on the BG. Not that I choose to, but it will happen naturally and I won't have a conscious choice in the matter... so that's how I've decided to practice as well.

 

[rvb]

+1 to kludge.
She is miles ahead of the average shooter....
She is focusing on the front sight, keeping both eyes open, and aware of what she sees.

If I were her instructor, I would determine her dominant eye, explain what she is seeing (and compare/contrast with one eye open) and help her learn what "images" to use and what to filter.

-rvb (and yes, I'm an NRA instructor)

ps. If she is seeing double with only one eye open, then, umm... yea, the laser sounds good to me. And maybe volunteer to drive her to get new glasses...

 

[bigus_D]

I'm certainly not an instructor, but here are my 2 cents.

I like the idea of covering one eye for this situation. So long as the dominate eye has already been identified, and that eye is left open for instruction. Once form has been defined you could move to trying both eyes open again.

I've been taught to shoot both eyes open, always aiming at the (double vision) target on the dominate side. I don't notice seeing two rear sights, but it makes sense that some people do notice this. With form defined, it should be possible to teach her to properly line up the correct (double vision) rear sight image with the front sight (in focus) and shoot at the dominate side (double vision) target. <- a mouthful I'm not sure if the strong side rear sight (double vision image) or weak side image should be used though.

 

[esrice]

How about a micro-red dot?

 

[Steve MI]

I was about to mention that Eric

I use on on my compact mp for shooters with severe eye issues or multiply transition lens(bi/trifocal it makes a huge differance. for them

 

[Joe Williams]

I shoot with both eyes open, and don't see double. I didn't know anyone did. Actually, I don't see much but the front sight.

I REALLY like that micro dot. As my eyes age, I'm thinking it might be an awfully nice thing to have. Do ya'll have a link to one?

 

[Coach]

If tape or closing and eye does not fix the double vision, which I cannot imagine. Then go with the laser, that is why God invented them.

 

[Tinman]

Thanks for all the advice.

It had occurred to me to recommend a dot sight, but as she's on a fixed income and just starting out, I really was trying to avoid the "oh by the way, you need to get this just in case that laser goes down".

My first thought was eye dominance as well, mainly because I’ve got a friend that deals with that. No joy, right handed, and right eye dominant.

We had another lesson last night, and things went better. I did have her close the left eye, and things improved to the point that she could effectively hit 8” plates at 10 yards without the laser.

I also found out she suffers from astigmatism so that may explain a lot of the issues. As far as the double vision, I guess I never realized people suffered from that. When I focus on the front sight, the rear and the target are fuzzy, but there is only one set of each.

Long story short, she’s basically just training her brain to line up the correct combination of what she sees and where it needs to go, just as a backup to the laser.

Thanks again,

Tinman….

 

[obijohn]

there is a lot of good info here, tinman. i suggest occluding one eye so she can shoot with her facial muscles relaxed. i've gone to a slide ride dot on one of my carry guns due to my failing vision and it has proven to be a very practical solution. budget allowing, that is.

 

[kludge]

I also found out she suffers from astigmatism so that may explain a lot of the issues.

I also have developed an astigmatism (very slight) in the last few years, not to the point of "needing" glasses, but they do help, especially with a scope. Eye doctors however will ask you, "Do you want these glasses for reading, using the computer, or driving, and sometimes if they set them up for driving, reading might be a bit more difficult. Mine are set for computer.

Depending on her level of astigmatism, she would be better off shooting with glasses.

An interesting thing about the tiny rear apertures in target .22s is that, just like a pinhole camera, depth of field increases dramatically. Just look at old photograps taken with pinhole cameras and you will see that almost everything is in perfect focus. This occurs when target shooting too. I've discovered that it also counteracts my astigmatism, in that the imperfection in my cornea is not making a second image on my retina (which is what astigmatism is).

As far as the double vision, I guess I never realized people suffered from that. When I focus on the front sight, the rear and the target are fuzzy, but there is only one set of each.

Out of curiosity, try this experiment... Perhaps your dominant eye is SO dominant, that your brain completely ignores the second image.

Sausage Finger Trick

Hold your hands like in the top picture. Hold them about 3" -4" in front of your face.

Look at your fingers, you should see the top picture.

Now, don't move your fingers and focus on the computer screen. You should see the second picture, but a bit fuzzy.

If you don't see the second picture, you might be blind in one eye.

But anyway this illustrates what she is going through.​

 

[kludge]

things improved to the point that she could effectively hit 8” plates at 10 yards without the laser.

That's actually very good progress for a first timer.