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  • Indy317

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Nov 27, 2008
    2,495
    38
    Just so I'm getting this straight. You were "attacked" and yet not in fear for your life? And yet you thought it was perfectly acceptable to discharge a firearm in a residential neighborhood, during a time in which children were coming home from school.

    You make it sound like he just started firing in random directions given your lack of specifics for how exactly the firearm was discharged. Here is the problem I have with the above: Folks think that if one isn't at a shooting range, any discharge of a bullet that doesn't strike the target (ie: Dog, bad guy) is automatically looked upon as dangerous. Please. The laws of physics are what they are. I usually have a gun on me when I'm out in my yard cutting/moving wood. I've had a few dogs come around, none attacked me. I mostly carry my gun because I have neighbors a few doors down that have two pit bulls, and they manage to get loose every so often. Then have never shown violence towards me, but they have been "rough" with smaller dogs, and they obviously don't behave as the owner has to run down the road after them, and they don't obey any of her commands.

    I don't get this "if you fear for your life, shoot that which is causing fear." logic. Some folks act like warning shots into the dirt are the exact same as blasting off a full mag in all directions. When I go to the range, I shoot into dirt. Why is it considered so horrible to shoot into the ground? If a dog attacks me, it likely will get shot, if it is not really in what I call full attack mode, but showing agression, I think it is fine to try and scare the dog away and end the threat. My backyard is dirt, not a cement slab, not stone. If I were to fire a bullet to try and scare away a dog getting in my personal space, not attacking, but showing some serious agression, I might fire into the ground, hope the dog takes off, and end up with a bullet under the surface of my yard. There is a .00000000000000000001% chance that yea, the bullet might strike a rock 1mm under the dirt causing a piece of the copper jacket to fly off, go through my neighbors window, and strike him in the eye. The fact is, I doubt there is even that high of a %.

    If what LS says is true, that he pulled the gun, turned around, and fired directly into the dirt...who cares if it was in a "residential neighborhood" or "children were coming home from school." We had a person take a safe shot into a material he knew would stop the bullet in a safe manner. He didn't just say "hey, I'm gonna go out and shoot into the dirt" for no reason. I would be more worried about a person who lives in one of those vinyl village homes taking a fully justified shot at a home invader than I would be with what LS did. Some of those homes you can open your window reach out, and hand stuff to your neighbor in their home. Imagine a miss that goes through a window into the home next door. Imagine someone whose only means of home defense is a .308 hunting rifle.

    The fear of "what ifs..." is getting out-of-control. We now have a society that is fearful of anything and everything that the state tells them to fear. Never fear that there is seriously a 1-in-a-billion chance of some of these "dangers" actually causing any danger.

    I am a firm believer in being responsible. If LS had just went out shooting on his land in such an area, then yea, ticket him. If LS had fired a shot in the air, or through the air, I would back the officer. However, since LS was being attacked, and he seems to have done what was need to ensure shooting in a safe distraction to scare the dog and stop the attack, I don't see an issue here.

    Incidents like this just further the divide between LE and the people. More and more, people don't want to call the cops unless they basically need someone with a gun to show up and engage a violent person. It is why we have plenty of folks here who just want to lie to cops about having a legal handgun in their possession, and definately don't want to offer up that information. Seems to be more and more folks are just viewing officers as the absolute when it comes to the law and how things should be dealt with, and if the LEO disagrees with you, you are screwed.
     

    phatgemi

    Expert
    Rating - 100%
    16   0   0
    Oct 1, 2008
    1,220
    63
    Metamora, IN
    No one.

    Maybe you need to remember that the next time you call someone "junior" and tell him to get another decade of experience before he dares disagrees with you.

    BTW.....say what you want about Carmel PD, but I'd 1000 times rather live in their service district than live in an area serviced by one of the most corrupt police departments in the Midwest....aka Cincinnati PD. So don't pull a muscle patting yourself too hard on the back there, Wyatt.


    Just curious how you have the Cincinnati PD as one of the most corrupt in the Midwest.....Plenty of issues at times but don't think corruption is one I have seen in the news. I live in Indiana and work in Cincinnati. I wish the retired LT all the best. Next time shoot the dog!!! Good luck.
     

    Pocketman

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Aug 11, 2010
    1,704
    36
    Been watching these threads since Liberty's first posting. As another former LEO, I've tried to be objective toward both sides of the situation. I wasn't there, but given what I've read, probably would not have shot the dogs either. If they had a hold of my pant leg in a vicious manner, maybe I would have.

    Liberty is the original CPD "complainant." He called the police to report the incident to provide a record of what occurred, for his own protection as well as the City's. Since there was no harm done and no actual complaint, the responding officer could have filed a report and been done with it. I would have commented in the report “Mr. Sanders was counseled on the use of firearms within the city limits.”

    Policing is not what it used to be. Officer doesn’t issue a citation, someone complains to the mayor, and officer catches grief. Therefore officer issues citation to CYA and passes the decision on to the prosecutor.

    Situation now involves Liberty, the officer, the city attorney, INGO members, the WTHR viewing audience and most likely Jim Brainard. It is both public and political, which is a bad combination! Mayor sees it as cowboy vigilantes shooting up his town. Postponement allows the prosecutor time to prepare a resolution where the City can save face. Given the prosecutor's original plea offer, it apparently didn't start out as important nor worth the City's time. Perhaps the City's motive has changed? Let’s just hope the judge finds LS’ actions as “… reasonable use of weapons in the protection of human life or property."

    To repeat OP, "no good deed goes unpunished."
     
    Last edited:

    Kutnupe14

    Troll Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 13, 2011
    40,294
    149
    Been watching these threads since Liberty's first posting. As another former LEO, I've tried to be objective toward both sides of the situation. I wasn't there, but given what I've read, probably would not have shot the dogs either. If they had a hold of my pant leg in a vicious manner, maybe I would have.

    Liberty is the original CPD "complainant." He called the police to report the incident to provide a record of what occurred, for his own protection as well as the City's. Since there was no harm done and no actual complaint, the responding officer could have filed a report and been done with it. I would have commented in the report “Mr. Sanders was counseled on the use of firearms within the city limits.”

    Policing is not what it used to be. Officer doesn’t issue a citation, someone complains to the mayor, and officer catches grief. Therefore officer issues citation to CYA and passes the decision on to the prosecutor.

    Situation now involves Liberty, the officer, the city attorney, INGO members, the WTHR viewing audience and most likely Jim Brainard. It is both public and political, which is a bad combination! Mayor sees it as cowboy vigilantes shooting up his town. Postponement allows the prosecutor time to prepare a resolution where the City can save face. Given the prosecutor's original plea offer, it apparently didn't start out as important nor worth the City's time. Perhaps the City's motive has changed? Let’s just hope the judge finds LS’ actions as “… reasonable use of weapons in the protection of human life or property."

    To repeat OP, "no good deed goes unpunished."

    I've read the officer's report. Liberty has an uphill battle.
     

    quiggly

    Marksman
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jun 10, 2008
    258
    16
    Noblesville
    So was the gun taken and noted that it had been fired? Was the slug recovered from the ground? Were there any witnesses that saw this gun being fired by Liberty? Hmmm... Does an admission of a violation automatically mean guilty?

    Just wondering how that might go.... Sorry your honor.. I was just kidding?
     
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    1,826
    113
    Brainardland
    Ah yes...the report.

    I don't want to say too much about this subject.

    Let it suffice to say that if you're in the habit of falsifying official documents for the purpose of bolstering your court cases, sooner or later you're going to get sloppy.
     

    Kutnupe14

    Troll Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 13, 2011
    40,294
    149
    Ah yes...the report.

    I don't want to say too much about this subject.

    Let it suffice to say that if you're in the habit of falsifying official documents for the purpose of bolstering your court cases, sooner or later you're going to get sloppy.

    Oh, this should be interesting. I have no idea how to re-edit a report (or better yet, lack the "authority"). But and Liberty have discussed, can see how it, in theory, could be done.
     

    Sticky

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 22, 2011
    497
    18
    central IN
    Seems simple. Does a large dog(s), attacking you, put one in imminent and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm? Absolutely it does; the former and the latter.

    Successful self defense doesn't require that the dog(s) be killed. Only that the incident be resolved with minimal injury. Mission accomplished. I think shooting into the ground was also safer than shooting the dog in close proximity to your leg. Well done.

    Please keep an updated court date and time posted so that I and others can be at the hearing.

    This incident only reinforces opinions that acquaintances of mine have volunteered, regarding Carmel PD, over the last 20 years or so.
     
    Last edited:
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    Aug 23, 2009
    1,826
    113
    Brainardland
    Frankly, there's precious little left to discuss. Now it's just hurry up and wait.

    I feel like I used to when I was on a stakeout. I just want the :poop: to hit the fan and get it over with.
     

    Kutnupe14

    Troll Emeritus
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 13, 2011
    40,294
    149
    Seems simple. Does a large dog(s), attacking you, put one in imminent and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm? Absolutely it does; the former and the latter.

    Successful self defense doesn't require that the dog(s) be killed. Only that the incident be resolved with minimal injury. Mission accomplished. I think shooting into the ground was also safer than shooting the dog in close proximity to your leg. Well done.

    Please keep an updated court date and time posted so that I and others can be at the hearing.

    This incident only reinforces opinions that acquaintances of mine have volunteered, regarding Carmel PD, over the last 20 years or so.

    In comparing CPD 20 years ago to today...there is a wide disparity.
     

    patton487

    Sharpshooter
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Feb 2, 2010
    458
    16
    Curious, isn't a police report a matter of public record? I mean, there's no KGB or secret police here(yet). What's the big deal? Can't anyone request a copy???:dunno:
     

    Beau

    Master
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 20, 2008
    2,385
    38
    Colorado
    You make it sound like he just started firing in random directions given your lack of specifics for how exactly the firearm was discharged. Here is the problem I have with the above: Folks think that if one isn't at a shooting range, any discharge of a bullet that doesn't strike the target (ie: Dog, bad guy) is automatically looked upon as dangerous. Please.

    I don't get this "if you fear for your life, shoot that which is causing fear." logic. Some folks act like warning shots into the dirt are the exact same as blasting off a full mag in all directions. When I go to the range, I shoot into dirt. Why is it considered so horrible to shoot into the ground? even that high of a %.

    If what LS says is true, that he pulled the gun, turned around, and fired directly into the dirt...who cares if it was in a "residential neighborhood" or "children were coming home from school." We had a person take a safe shot into a material he knew would stop the bullet in a safe manner. He didn't just say "hey, I'm gonna go out and shoot into the dirt" for no reason. I would be more worried about a person who lives in one of those vinyl village homes taking a fully justified shot at a home invader than I would be with what LS did. Some of those homes you can open your window reach out, and hand stuff to your neighbor in their home. Imagine a miss that goes through a window into the home next door. Imagine someone whose only means of home defense is a .308 hunting rifle.

    The fear of "what ifs..." is getting out-of-control. We now have a society that is fearful of anything and everything that the state tells them to fear. Never fear that there is seriously a 1-in-a-billion chance of some of these "dangers" actually causing any danger.


    Incidents like this just further the divide between LE and the people. More and more, people don't want to call the cops unless they basically need someone with a gun to show up and engage a violent person. It is why we have plenty of folks here who just want to lie to cops about having a legal handgun in their possession, and definately don't want to offer up that information. Seems to be more and more folks are just viewing officers as the absolute when it comes to the law and how things should be dealt with, and if the LEO disagrees with you, you are screwed.

    QFT

    Seems simple. Does a large dog(s), attacking you, put one in imminent and unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm? Absolutely it does; the former and the latter.

    Successful self defense doesn't require that the dog(s) be killed. Only that the incident be resolved with minimal injury. Mission accomplished. I think shooting into the ground was also safer than shooting the dog in close proximity to your leg. Well done.
    .

    ^This. Where does it say that if you are justified in using deadly force that you actually have to kill something?
     
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