"point shooting" is the only way I shoot a pistol..now before I get a verbal beat down let me explain. I grew up shooting and hunting with a recurve bow{no sights} and have learned to shoot instinctively in both target shooting and hunting situations with a bow and in most cases a shotgun..yes alot different than pistol shooting but Ive adapted my archery "skills" to my pistol shooting. the thing about shooting instictively with a bow and being consistant is you must find what works for you and stick with it and in a hunting situation there is plenty of adrenalin you must control in order to make a fatal shot. there is nothing "text book" in the way I draw and shoot but I feel it works for me...now in a self defense situation all this could be thrown out the window but Im confident enough in my abilities that Ill be able to defend myself...hopefully I will never have to find out.
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Archaic_Entity
Sharpshooter
- Nov 9, 2008
- 626
- 16
That is a good point I didn't think about.
I've done the same for years with my bow (also a recurve). I haven't translated it over to shooting with a pistol, but I do with both a shotgun and a rubber band (odd, I know). Perhaps it's worth investigating. May I point out, though, that Relic does bring up a good point. While there may be 'methods' to Point Shooting, the best method is the one you train with that works. If you train with it and you're not hitting your target, but you find a while that allows you to... then that's your method, regardless of how someone might criticize it.
As for the rubber band thing... well, we have these huge blue rubber bands, I can pretty accurately launch them across a room by pulling them fairly similarly to a bow...
I've done the same for years with my bow (also a recurve). I haven't translated it over to shooting with a pistol, but I do with both a shotgun and a rubber band (odd, I know). Perhaps it's worth investigating. May I point out, though, that Relic does bring up a good point. While there may be 'methods' to Point Shooting, the best method is the one you train with that works. If you train with it and you're not hitting your target, but you find a while that allows you to... then that's your method, regardless of how someone might criticize it.
As for the rubber band thing... well, we have these huge blue rubber bands, I can pretty accurately launch them across a room by pulling them fairly similarly to a bow...
Maybe, but I'm at least going to make it harder and inflict some damage myself, and thus, give my loved ones a chance to avoid being killed.
I've looked into the point shooting stuff before, and I'm pretty well convinced to disregard it. I'm better off focusing on the front sight and using my, uh, trigger finger on the trigger.
Archaic_Entity
Sharpshooter
- Nov 9, 2008
- 626
- 16
Well, I don't ever point and shoot as described by taking my pointer finger off the trigger and firing with my middle finger, that's just silly.
However, you can sort of 'point shoot' (I'm by no means a scientist with this) by grabbing the pistol with both hands and lining up your thumbs on the left hand side of the pistol with where you're shooting. Whenever I do that for speed drawing I'll still find myself behind my sights and leaned into the shot. I manage to put at least 5 shots on target in the belly. Now, granted, I'm no expert, but that was with my first few times trying it at all.
Archaic_Entity
Sharpshooter
- Nov 9, 2008
- 626
- 16
Yup, that's what I was talking about. I just don't see how that's useful primarily because you don't have as much fine motor control over your middle finger, making it more likely to jerk when you shoot. Whereas, by pointing both thumbs at a target, I still have my pointer finger to use, and I can tell point a thumb just as well as I can a pointer finger.
Using your sights is totaly situational. When we qulaified in the service. Ourt first two strings of fire, where three yards. We had to draw, and fire the first two rounds with our elbows at 90 degrees then one shot strong hand supported. Reason being you do not have the time, to draw and focus on your sights. Also when we learned tachtical entry, room clearing. When moving you do not keep one eye closed focused on your sights. If you do so you limit your field of view. When enetring a room, if confronted by an aggresor you must then focus on your sight or shoot not using your sights. Again it is totaly situational. For best self defense practice, you should be able to do both.
That is exactly what is recommended by the website in the OP:
Yeah, that's why I started this thread: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...ning/36358-aimed_point_shooting_question.html
hoping that 5shot would explain some of the questions about it, but he hasn't seen the thread. Maybe he'll see it now and respond. Or maybe I should PM him the question.
jason conley
Sharpshooter
No amount of training can save you when its your time to go.
No lack of training can kill you if it's not your time to go, either.
I guess we should all stop training, stop carrying guns, stop changing the batteries in our smoke detectors, stop wearing seat belts, drive as fast as we want while intoxicated, and start looking gift horses in the mouth.
Re read some of the comments. Sorry for my slow response.
I support all kinds of Point Shooting and in particular P&S which is the simplest of the bunch, and it can be used with all of them to enhance them, Sight Shooting 2.
Point Shooting is easy to learn, but don't expect it to happen by magic when you are facing a life threat at CQ. That could prove to be fatal.
With P&S, you automatically get correct sight alignment and sight placement, since the sights and barrel are in alignment, and will keep that alignment when your index finger is placed alongside the gun, and you then point fast automatically and accurately, as we all can naturally.
It's brain dead simple, can be learned with little or no training, and once learned you don't forget it. As to trigger control, I don't know what that is. I just pull it when Point Shooting. And the grip used is a very strong 4 fingered grip, not your weak "sissy" 3 fingered MT grip.
As to using the sights, the Army says that at night and at < 15 feet (which is the distance per the stats, wherein 90% of officers are killed in gunfights), you should use a two handed Isso. And that can be learned with little if any training.
Per the SOP 9: From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet. To me that means if you are going to be shot and or killed in a gunfight, it will happen at < 15 feet. And most all gunfights occur at < 21 feet.
Also, per the NYPD SOP 9, in a review of around 200 cases, they were unable to establish a link between range performance and on the street performance.
Sight Shooting which they were taught, was not used in most all of 5000+ cases studied.
As to the 1911, I just put together a chronology of P&S. It has been used since 1804 AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology It contains a bunch of references to its use, and several cautions against it use, all of which are found in US military manuals on how to use the 1911.
The 1911 was adopted by the US Military in 1911, and was the standard-issue side arm from 1911 to 1985.
IMHO, the 1911 has a design flaw, because its design excludes the use of the index finger along the side of the 1911 for aiming which is done with P&S. As such, P&S was squelched from 1912 to 1985.
Suppressing or prohibiting the use of a known and effective shooting method for use in CQ life threat situations, to accommodate a weapon, rather than making a minor modification to a weapon to accommodate those who go in harms way, makes absolutely no sense.
Further, once established as dogma, institutionalized practices and behaviors can be almost insurmountable obstacles to change, and particularly in strict heirarchial organizations which deal with life and death matters.
Additionally, you can expect that those who were taught, and now teach those traditional methods can be expected to defend them. And they can be expected to slam any upstart who questions the established methods (Sight Shooting), and even if it has been proven by scientific investigation and studies and environmental conditions, to be UNABLE TO BE USED in those situations where there is the greatest likelyhood of being shot and/or killed.
And their associates can be expected out of fellowship, to do the same.
Are there exceptions, sure, but they should be few and far between for those of us who are mere mortals, and for the average joe home defender type.
If you are SWAT, or a SEAL or some superior operator type, and train as they do, I trust that you are good to go.
Here is a link to more info on the design flaw of the 1911, http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm
I will add a short description of P&S to the other thread that has been started. It will a shortened version that is on the front page of my site. There also are extended explanations of it, and combat studies and stats and other information that support its use.
I will try and come back here sooner rather than later.
I support all kinds of Point Shooting and in particular P&S which is the simplest of the bunch, and it can be used with all of them to enhance them, Sight Shooting 2.
Point Shooting is easy to learn, but don't expect it to happen by magic when you are facing a life threat at CQ. That could prove to be fatal.
With P&S, you automatically get correct sight alignment and sight placement, since the sights and barrel are in alignment, and will keep that alignment when your index finger is placed alongside the gun, and you then point fast automatically and accurately, as we all can naturally.
It's brain dead simple, can be learned with little or no training, and once learned you don't forget it. As to trigger control, I don't know what that is. I just pull it when Point Shooting. And the grip used is a very strong 4 fingered grip, not your weak "sissy" 3 fingered MT grip.
As to using the sights, the Army says that at night and at < 15 feet (which is the distance per the stats, wherein 90% of officers are killed in gunfights), you should use a two handed Isso. And that can be learned with little if any training.
Per the SOP 9: From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet. To me that means if you are going to be shot and or killed in a gunfight, it will happen at < 15 feet. And most all gunfights occur at < 21 feet.
Also, per the NYPD SOP 9, in a review of around 200 cases, they were unable to establish a link between range performance and on the street performance.
Sight Shooting which they were taught, was not used in most all of 5000+ cases studied.
As to the 1911, I just put together a chronology of P&S. It has been used since 1804 AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology It contains a bunch of references to its use, and several cautions against it use, all of which are found in US military manuals on how to use the 1911.
The 1911 was adopted by the US Military in 1911, and was the standard-issue side arm from 1911 to 1985.
IMHO, the 1911 has a design flaw, because its design excludes the use of the index finger along the side of the 1911 for aiming which is done with P&S. As such, P&S was squelched from 1912 to 1985.
Suppressing or prohibiting the use of a known and effective shooting method for use in CQ life threat situations, to accommodate a weapon, rather than making a minor modification to a weapon to accommodate those who go in harms way, makes absolutely no sense.
Further, once established as dogma, institutionalized practices and behaviors can be almost insurmountable obstacles to change, and particularly in strict heirarchial organizations which deal with life and death matters.
Additionally, you can expect that those who were taught, and now teach those traditional methods can be expected to defend them. And they can be expected to slam any upstart who questions the established methods (Sight Shooting), and even if it has been proven by scientific investigation and studies and environmental conditions, to be UNABLE TO BE USED in those situations where there is the greatest likelyhood of being shot and/or killed.
And their associates can be expected out of fellowship, to do the same.
Are there exceptions, sure, but they should be few and far between for those of us who are mere mortals, and for the average joe home defender type.
If you are SWAT, or a SEAL or some superior operator type, and train as they do, I trust that you are good to go.
Here is a link to more info on the design flaw of the 1911, http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm
I will add a short description of P&S to the other thread that has been started. It will a shortened version that is on the front page of my site. There also are extended explanations of it, and combat studies and stats and other information that support its use.
I will try and come back here sooner rather than later.
When you react with a gun in your hand it is typically back with your strong foot, The usually encourages people to move only backwards or not at all. That is the trained mind. If you are not armed armed and react it is typically by stepping back with your reaction side foot and powering off with your strong foot. That is the untrained mind from 1000's of years of hard wiring. Under stress the trained mind and the untrained mind are in conflict and people can sometimes just melt down and not move at all.
My two biggest issues with much of traditional training is two fold, the first is the emphasis of getting both hands on the gun even at conversational distances. Time and time again I see that once people get two hands on the gun the get glued in place. The second is as you bring the gun up bypassing the pelvic girdle to engage the chest. I teach to begin engaging at the pelvic girdle. It is super vascular and a structural lynch pin. Just like when you get ball tapped, a round to the pelvic girdle will bring the head down and present a better chance of rounds striking the central nervous system through the top on the head, rear of the spine or even behind the clavicles. Just my $.02.- George
My two biggest issues with much of traditional training is two fold, the first is the emphasis of getting both hands on the gun even at conversational distances. Time and time again I see that once people get two hands on the gun the get glued in place. The second is as you bring the gun up bypassing the pelvic girdle to engage the chest. I teach to begin engaging at the pelvic girdle. It is super vascular and a structural lynch pin. Just like when you get ball tapped, a round to the pelvic girdle will bring the head down and present a better chance of rounds striking the central nervous system through the top on the head, rear of the spine or even behind the clavicles. Just my $.02.- George
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