Greenwood mall shooting

[nonobaddog]

I grew up in a time when it was not a total panic situation to see a guy with a gun. When I saw a guy with a rifle it was not my first thought to kill him. It is not the gun that is bad. It would take some kind of indication or action that the person with the gun is bad.

When he first steps out of the bathroom the rifle is not pointed at anybody.
(Some of you would shoot him, I wouldn't)
So the guy had to first point it at somebody, that is an action that indicates the guy is probably a bad guy. This state of affairs is not particularly interesting because this state only lasts a fraction of a second before he actually fires the rifle. Now the situation is clear.
(All or most of us would shoot now including me.)

 

[actaeon277]

I grew up in a time when it was not a total panic situation to see a guy with a gun. When I saw a guy with a rifle it was not my first thought to kill him. It is not the gun that is bad. It would take some kind of indication or action that the person with the gun is bad.

When he first steps out of the bathroom the rifle is not pointed at anybody.
(Some of you would shoot him, I wouldn't)
So the guy had to first point it at somebody, that is an action that indicates the guy is probably a bad guy. This state of affairs is not particularly interesting because this state only lasts a fraction of a second before he actually fires the rifle. Now the situation is clear.
(All or most of us would shoot now including me.)

When the guy walked out of the bathroom, he blasted and killed the first victim.

 

[nonobaddog]

You are digging yourself into a hole my friend. You might want to just stop and study up on the subject a bit.

It's one thing to err on the side of caution for yourself, another to pass along bad information to others.

I am stating my opinion. I would hope people here are not influenced enough by opinions to alter their own behavior.

But I will take your suggestion and stop and study the subject.
I am simply one person who wants to be damn sure of what the situation really is before I shoot anything. I am not willing to assume I know what others are thinking.

 

[nonobaddog]

When the guy walked out of the bathroom, he blasted and killed the first victim.

Yes - exactly - I just broke that down into smaller pieces.

 

[jaymark6655]

I'll try to explain it to you.
Using the example we are talking about and NOT spreading it out to every self defense situation ever and anywhere.

Eli is making the decision so we have to limit this to what information Eli had on which to base that decision.

He sees a person come out of a bathroom with what appears to be a rifle that looks like it could be an AR-15.
He sees this from over 40 yards away. From that distance he can't tell much more than it looks like an AR-15.
He can't tell if it is loaded. He can't even tell if it is a real gun. He can't read the guy's mind so he can't know what is going on.

Possibility 1 - A local arteestic type with very few brains is shooting a homemade movie using his phone. The guy coming out of the bathroom has a prop gun that looks like an AR-15. The arteestic type wants to film the realistic reactions of the crowd fleeing from the mean looking gun guy actor. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

Possibility 2 - It is an AR-15. The person brought it to the mall to impress or threaten his girlfriend working at the waffle hut. There is no ammunition in the rifle or anywhere in the guy's possession. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

Possibility 3 - It is an AR-15 and is loaded. The guy has already committed several crimes but he has not fired his gun and he has not shot anybody. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

I am saying there is a chance the prosecutor doesn't like citizens killing people that have not committed any violent crimes just because you think they were going to commit violent crimes. You could be screwed.

Before the guy shot at some people, Eli did not have enough information to take a human life.

I'd like to throw in one very possible situation.
Guy comes out of bathroom with AR-15 style rifle. You shoot and kill. Witnesses are now saying they never saw guy raise rifle or that he was only raising his rifle to defend himself against you firing at him. Eye witnesses are a funny thing, guy was just an idiot open carrying a rifle, peacefully, until you murdered him. With everything that I've in recent years, I would not be shocked to see it happen this way.

*Edited for some poor grammar.

 

[bwframe]

I am stating my opinion. I would hope people here are not influenced enough by opinions to alter their own behavior...

We are all here to learn aren't we?

 

[JCSR]

I'm a little behind in this thread so, did Eli see the shooter prior to hearing the first shot? If so what was his response?

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I'll try to explain it to you.
Using the example we are talking about and NOT spreading it out to every self defense situation ever and anywhere.

Eli is making the decision so we have to limit this to what information Eli had on which to base that decision.

He sees a person come out of a bathroom with what appears to be a rifle that looks like it could be an AR-15.
He sees this from over 40 yards away. From that distance he can't tell much more than it looks like an AR-15.
He can't tell if it is loaded. He can't even tell if it is a real gun. He can't read the guy's mind so he can't know what is going on.

Possibility 1 - A local arteestic type with very few brains is shooting a homemade movie using his phone. The guy coming out of the bathroom has a prop gun that looks like an AR-15. The arteestic type wants to film the realistic reactions of the crowd fleeing from the mean looking gun guy actor. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

Possibility 2 - It is an AR-15. The person brought it to the mall to impress or threaten his girlfriend working at the waffle hut. There is no ammunition in the rifle or anywhere in the guy's possession. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

Possibility 3 - It is an AR-15 and is loaded. The guy has already committed several crimes but he has not fired his gun and he has not shot anybody. You shoot and kill him and everyone says you were justified, even the county prosecutor. (yeah, right)

I am saying there is a chance the prosecutor doesn't like citizens killing people that have not committed any violent crimes just because you think they were going to commit violent crimes. You could be screwed.

Before the guy shot at some people, Eli did not have enough information to take a human life.

#1: I've had someone shoot at, but miss, someone in exactly scenario #1. Idiots filming in a parking lot, bystander believes it's a real robbery, shoots at the 'bad guy' but misses, everyone immediately surrenders. No charges for interveing party (and many could apply if it was deemed a bad shoot, crim reck, attempt battery with a deadly weapon, etc. etc) because....reasonable person standard. The filming morons had no notices up, etc. By your standard, you would no only have to wait for the mall shooter to open fire but a knife wielding meth head threatening you for your wallet because MAYBE it's a prank tv show or something. Does that really seem reasonable to you?

#2: I've had self defense cases vs an unloaded gun, non-functioning gun, and even vs an airsoft gun. None were charged. Reasonable person standard.

#3: IN makes pointing a firearm a felony.


Chip nails it in his post. You are not expected to have a crystal ball and predict the future. You are expected to behave reasonably. Someone walking out of a bathroom in a mall with a gun in hand and raising it toward a crowd is completely reasonable to be viewed as an imminent threat by the law and by society at large. If he fires or not is not what charging decisions will hinge on, and in this case it was so bright line that is it *literally* laughable to think it would have mattered, given the video, the witnesses, and what investigators knew before even speaking with the defender. Your notions are simply wrong and I highly urge others reading to take a class such as Guy's or Mas' MAG40 if you labor under similar misconceptions.

 

[bwframe]

I'm a little behind in this thread so, did Eli see the shooter prior to hearing the first shot? If so what was his response?

If I understood Guy correctly in the interview posted above, Eli heard the first guy get shot in the rest room multiple times. Then seen the people get shot at the table. Eli then began to end the threat.


.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

Plus I don't want to be the guy that shot the stupid guy with the phony or unloaded rifle.

Do you want to be the guy who stood there in indecision while innocents are killed in front of you?

The victims are husband and wife, Pedro Pineda, 56, and Rosa Mirian Rivera de Pineda, 37, and Victor Gomez, 30, a father of three. In just fifteen seconds, three people, whose families said they had so much to live for, were gone.

Two other victims, a 22-year-old woman and a 12-year-old girl, were also injured in the shooting.

What if that possibly fake rifle is pointed at you? YOUR 12 year old girl? Come off it.

 

[nonobaddog]

By your standard, you would no only have to wait for the mall shooter to open fire but a knife wielding meth head threatening you for your wallet because MAYBE it's a prank tv show or something. Does that really seem reasonable to you?

No, that does not seem reasonable to me but it has nothing to do with the situation we are talking about.

It also does not seem reasonable to try to generalize one situation into others like you keep trying to do. It doesn't work. A meth head threatening me with a knife is a completely different situation. I do not respond the same way to completely different situations. Do you always respond the same way to completely different situations?

 

[nonobaddog]

What if that possibly fake rifle is pointed at you? YOUR 12 year old girl? Come off it.

It wasn't pointed at me or any of my family.

Please stop changing the situation and thinking that makes any sense.

 

[jwamplerusa]

You seem to like taking chances with today's prosecutors. Good luck.

Again, what @chipbennett said. There are no guarantees regardless of who the prosecutor is. Though I understand that your perspective may be different from Minnesota.

Seriously, find a Minnesota equivalent to Mr. Relford's Essentials of Indiana gun Laws and take it. It will probably be the highest value firearms related training you will ever take.

 

[ColdSteel223]

Let's reset the scene, the first victim sees the gunman exit the restroom and smoke checks the bad guy. Murder or self defense? Just a few seconds either way it could have played out this way. Instead of a 40 yard shot, it is a 4 feet encounter.

Should the good guy wait until the bad guy gets off the first shot? Then cap him in the back of the head? Shoot him in the face before he gets the first shot off?

What is reasonable in this day and age?

 

[Route 45]

I'd like to throw in one very possible situation.
Guy comes out of bathroom with AR-15 style rifle. You shoot and kill. Witnesses are now saying they never saw guy raise rifle or that he was only raising his rifle to defend himself against you firing at him. Eye witnesses are a funny thing, guy was just an idiot open carrying a rifle, peacefully, until you murdered him. With everything that I've in recent years, I would not be shocked to see it happen this way.

*Edited for some poor grammar.

If you worry about what others might say about potential actions that you might take to defend yourself, your family and others, you might want to just go ahead and leave your pistol at home. Because you've already determined that you cannot distinguish between simple open carry of a rifle and an immediate threat.

But regarding the open carry of a rifle in a mall...yeah. Anyone who does that is screwed in the head, and the only thing left to determine upon observing such an individual is whether he is simply a ****ing idiot or an actual hostile threat. I don't worry about what Karen thinks about my actions, I act based on my own perceptions. Monday morning quarterbacking implies that I'm still alive on Monday, and I'll take that result.

 

[KellyinAvon]

A wise man once said, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

 

[nonobaddog]

If you worry about what others might say about potential actions that you might take to defend yourself, your family and others, you might want to just go ahead and leave your pistol at home. Because you've already determined that you cannot distinguish between simple open carry of a rifle and an immediate threat.

But regarding the open carry of a rifle in a mall...yeah. Anyone who does that is screwed in the head, and the only thing left to determine upon observing such an individual is whether he is simply a ****ing idiot or an actual hostile threat. I don't worry about what Karen thinks about my actions, I act based on my own perceptions. Monday morning quarterbacking implies that I'm still alive on Monday, and I'll take that result.

What I hear is people are not determining this at all - they are shooting him.

All I have been saying is exactly what you said - "determine whether he is simply a ****ing idiot or an actual hostile threat"

 

[nonobaddog]

A wise man once said, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging."

Yes, that and don't open carry in Indiana.

 

[Route 45]

Yes, that and don't open carry in Indiana.

Open carry is legal. Lots of stuff that is perfectly legal has social consequences.

The notion that one should simply open fire on a guy with a rifle at a mall is incorrect, but considering the current social climate, it's not entirely surprising that the first notion would be to do so. What do you think is more likely? That people would defend the moron with the rifle in the food court if it turns out that he was shot despite not acting in a threatening manner? Or that they would be praising the shooter for stopping the perceived threat?

We live in a society, not in a bubble. Read the room.

 

[nonobaddog]

The notion that one should simply open fire on a guy with a rifle at a mall is incorrect, but considering the current social climate, it's not entirely surprising that the first notion would be to do so.

Chip says you can do that.

The law hinges on the reasonableness of one's actions - in the case of use of deadly force in self-defense, the reasonableness of one's fear of death or great bodily harm. Seeing someone emerge from a bathroom holding a rifle in shooting position absolutely meets the standard of reasonableness, whether one uses deadly force in self-defense before or after the suspected assailant starts shooting.