First time watching laser sight in action.

[Bassat]

Full disclosure: I am an open/iron sights guy. We can agree to disagree on that much.

I went to a new local firing range yesterday. I took my box-stock, iron sight, Browning Buckmark .22LR, and two bricks of ammo. Just a plinking day for me.

The guy next to me was shooting something larger. Holes were big, so was the 'boom', though I don't know what caliber or gun. He is shooting a man-size silhouette at 5 yards, and barely keeping things on the paper. A goodly percentage of holes were low & left, so I will assume either jerking the trigger, or recoil anticipation. He moves the target out to 15 yards, and I swear he is missing the paper... regularly. He puts up another target, and goes back to 5 yards. Then I notice a green laser on the target. I think to myself, "Well, that isn't going to help." It didn't. Laser fixed on the center X, then I see the laser jerk down and left, followed immediately by a round going off, and a low/left hole in the target. This continued for a few minutes, with nary a hole anywhere near the X. I took this as proof of my position that Laser/RDS sights DO NOT, and CANNOT improve your shooting. Learn to shoot, learn the fundamentals. I don't think sighting system matters ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You can learn to put rounds where you want them with open/laser/RDS, and then move freely between systems. What you can't do is buy a sighting system that will make up for poor/sloppy gun/trigger control skills. Opinions?

 

[cg21]

He was just figuring out where to hold the laser. Now he will put it on the bad guys right shoulder for center hits. He is playing chess.


I think a lot of people are of the “good enough” mindset. Google said 7yrds so he is happy if on paper at 7

 

[DadSmith]

He was just figuring out where to hold the laser. Now he will put it on the bad guys right shoulder for center hits. He is playing chess.


I think a lot of people are of the “good enough” mindset. Google said 7yrds so he is happy if on paper at 7

I like 22 feet

 

[NHT3]

Full disclosure: I am an open/iron sights guy. We can agree to disagree on that much.

I went to a new local firing range yesterday. I took my box-stock, iron sight, Browning Buckmark .22LR, and two bricks of ammo. Just a plinking day for me.

The guy next to me was shooting something larger. Holes were big, so was the 'boom', though I don't know what caliber or gun. He is shooting a man-size silhouette at 5 yards, and barely keeping things on the paper. A goodly percentage of holes were low & left, so I will assume either jerking the trigger, or recoil anticipation. He moves the target out to 15 yards, and I swear he is missing the paper... regularly. He puts up another target, and goes back to 5 yards. Then I notice a green laser on the target. I think to myself, "Well, that isn't going to help." It didn't. Laser fixed on the center X, then I see the laser jerk down and left, followed immediately by a round going off, and a low/left hole in the target. This continued for a few minutes, with nary a hole anywhere near the X. I took this as proof of my position that Laser/RDS sights DO NOT, and CANNOT improve your shooting. Learn to shoot, learn the fundamentals. I don't think sighting system matters ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE DOING. You can learn to put rounds where you want them with open/laser/RDS, and then move freely between systems. What you can't do is buy a sighting system that will make up for poor/sloppy gun/trigger control skills. Opinions?

Agree that sighting system are not connected to trigger control but lasers have their place and can improve your accuracy but have very limited uses one of which is not self defense IMHO. I use a laser on my training gun for students simply because it forces a target focus and removes sight alignment from the equation. It's a simple fact that many people don't realize how poor the picture of their front sight is.
The laser will visually show a student or instructor that the trigger is being slapped. I've found it hard to convince someone that they are slapping the trigger but forcing them to focus on the dot usually convinces them.
I would also say that the transition from iron sights to a RDS is something that doesn't happen automatically but that's a completely different subject.
Brings to mind what I saw when working as RSO at RUSA during a blind leading the blind training session. ( a regular occurrence)
"My gun shoots low left" response from training partner, "aim high right"
Practicing poor accuracy and bad habits always results in more of the same

 

[Bassat]

I've been working with my daughter (40) on trigger control. Two things got her to stop jerking the trigger; dry fire, and dummy rounds. Dry fire allows the muscle memory and sight picture to NOT be affected by a bucking gun and a very loud noise. Dummy rounds, I believe, are the easiest way to PROVE to the student that they are flinching/jerking the trigger. At the range, I load her magazine w/3 rounds, one of which is a dummy. I put the magazine in the gun, chamber the first round, put the safety on and lay the gun on the table. When the student flinches on the dummy round, it is hugely apparent to the student. Once they know they are doing it, they can work on correcting it. She still struggles with seeing a sight picture blurred out while looking at the target beyond; she is considering an RDS to solve that problem, now that she knows how to put rounds where she wants them. I'm cool with that.

 

[two70]

If I'm reading the OP correctly, the guy shot as poorly with iron sights as he did with a laser and that somehow indicates that lasers suck? Seems to me that the shooter was the problem not the laser. The laser merely demonstrated what he was doing wrong.

The expectation that a laser or RDS will cure poor trigger control is a poor one. As is the assumption that learning to use a RDS sight won't help one to be more accurate at longer distances or faster at all but point and shoot distance. Lasers are great for dry fire training and not a whole lot else.

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

We had a guy at the range who was in a wheelchair who shot with a laser and was damn good shot with it. He was shooting a 22 if I recall correctly. Littletommy may be able to verify that. He was probable best I've ever seen shooting with a laser, really had it together.

 

[Bassat]

If I'm reading the OP correctly, the guy shot as poorly with iron sights as he did with a laser and that somehow indicates that lasers suck? Seems to me that the shooter was the problem not the laser. The laser merely demonstrated what he was doing wrong.

The expectation that a laser or RDS will cure poor trigger control is a poor one. As is the assumption that learning to use a RDS sight won't help one to be more accurate at longer distances or faster at all but point and shoot distance. Lasers are great for dry fire training and not a whole lot else.

What you say is what I said. Guy sucked with iron sights. Guy sucked w/laser sight. The sight did not cure his poor trigger handling. I knew when I saw the laser come up, that it was NOT going to help him shoot better. LASER/RDS may help some shooters with their poor/low vision problems. It will certainly help those who struggle to see a blurry sight picture on a clear target (I've always shot that way). It cannot help you if you don't know how to operate a trigger in the first place.

 

[pute62]

We had a guy at the range who was in a wheelchair who shot with a laser and was damn good shot with it. He was shooting a 22 if I recall correctly. Littletommy may be able to verify that. He was probable best I've ever seen shooting with a laser, really had it together.

Here's another question from being in a wheelchair myself. Will recoil with a bigger handgun cause your wheelchair to roll if the wheels aren't locked? I would think so and hope I get the chance to find out firsthand at some point.

 

[Peacekeeper3073]

We had a guy at the range who was in a wheelchair who shot with a laser and was damn good shot with it. He was shooting a 22 if I recall correctly. Littletommy may be able to verify that. He was probable best I've ever seen shooting with a laser, really had it together.

Here's another question from being in a wheelchair myself. Will recoil with a bigger handgun cause your wheelchair to roll if the wheels aren't locked? I would think so and hope I get the chance to find out firsthand at some point.

I would say yes its a possibility moving a little but wouldn't think it would be much more than minor movement when your body absorbs the recoil. I saw a few in wheelchairs at the range they never had any issues that I saw. Get out do some shooting and enjoy your range time !

 

[blain]

After watching little Autumn handle everything from .22's to .357's to .45's, .44 Mags and 10mm's, I'm convinced any sidearm can be tamed and mastered. Well the 45-70, .454 or .500 may be exceptions.

 

[tscherry70]

I've got a Ruger LCR .327 mag with a Hogue laser grip. In my testing with dummy rounds the laser moves to the left about 4 inches at 10 ft as the trigger is pulled slowly (more so at longer distances). I know its going to move left every time, yet even knowing this, it's very difficult to compensate for especially in a hurry.

The trigger pull in the LCR is a bit heavy, 7 lbs or so, and you can't change the way physics work in your hand and tendons. The best position for my finger on the trigger is right on the first knuckle crease. I get the best leverage with the least sway and that's how I use all my revolvers. With the LCR I can kind of stage the trigger to the point where I know I'm at the wall, and then compensate the aim, but no way can I do this in haste.

The laser is a great aid when you are in a hurry and can't take your time to aim properly like in a self defense situation. Plus it helps people who have eye sight limitations. As with everything practice and training help immensely.

 

[wtburnette]

Lasers are great, if you already know how to pull a trigger correctly. Even pulling it 100% correctly, the laser will often drop a bit and you have to learn how to adjust for it. Once you do, they can be fantastic. What they don't do is fix your trigger discipline problems. I remember watching an older gentleman try to teach his wife how to shoot at the range one day. He broke out a gun with a laser and it was like being in a laser light show. Darn thing was all over the place. Of course her shots were all over the place, many even missing the target entirely. I was curious and went to the range soon after with a light/laser combo on one of my 1911's and was able to put everything in the same hole when concentrating. To each their own I guess.

 

[Pepi]

Sometimes I think putting the Crimson laser on my Shockwave was a dumb idea. I also went for the green and I think I like Red better

 

[tscherry70]

Sometimes I think putting the Crimson laser on my Shockwave was a dumb idea. I also went for the green and I think I like Red better

I put a red Crimson laser on my shockwave and love it. Since you can't shoulder it without popping your eye out, hip fire with the laser is the best way to use the shockwave imo. Also added a streamlight foreend and it's a great tool for dark encounters.

 

[ZurokSlayer7X9]

I mostly agree with the OP, as there is no secret sauce to make you a better shooter. There is however force multipliers which may enhance things in certain situations. Red Dot Sights I believe are more for target acquisition (especially in stress situations), as well as low light shooting scenarios.

 

[Pepi]

I've got the Red on my S&W Airweight and I can see it so much better than the Green on my Shockwave.

 

[BoilerWes]

Grip matters. A lot of trigger bs out there.