Electrician info

[Fenway]

Very cool

If everything goes smooth and we can get in and out in 4-5 hours, you're looking about $450-$600. Thats assuming I can get my trencher in and their is no huge tree roots in the way. If you're near me and you want me to check it out and give you a free quote PM me. I'm licensed bonded and insured.
If you want to do some grunt work I can drop my trencher off for you and you can do the trench before we get there and get down to business and backfill it yourself after.

I'm always up for using the barter system as well

 

[edsinger]

Oh my gosh. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about don't give advice..

Well considering I haven't pulled any Romex in 15+ years maybe your right. I guess the 500MCM, that I spec weekly is nothing then. How about the 9000MCM that I just purchased? I watch copper prices daily.

For instance romex would not be used to feed a shed and 120/240 wouldn't influence the installation price just to give 2 examples. .

Well first of all a 20A or a 30A ckt can be fed to a shed just fine with Romex.....YOUR HOUSE IS FULL OF IT.

240V would affect it as the price as now you need a panel to get the access to the 120V. But IMHO that price would be minor given the advantages.

A small 6/8 Ckt panel could be fed from a 3 Wire Romex cable just fine. 240V, and now you have 2 legs of 120V. Now granted the age of the dwelling should be accounted for, I mean if you want a separate ground, of which is always a good idea then maybe a 4Wire Romex 'type' cable would work.

Continuity meter...Did you know that you have continuity between Neutral and ground? Its the same NODE. Why? Bonded together (somewhere).

It will not be direct buried, put it in PVC, then BURY it....but you can buy direct buried cable but I would not in this case being so close to the house.

240 volt installs actually help lower your utility bill which will have an even greater impact in the near future. My comment about romex is because it's not for use in direct burial or aerial installs and you should not pull jacketed cable in conduit. .

Hmmm.....................

240V lowers your bill? Are you billed in Volts? Amps? Its that Ohms law thing again......you know VA........er Watts? (DC only)

E=VI ---- P=I^2R

You are billed in Watt/Hrs...that is not even talking inductive loads. You ever heard of ohms law? The real one? The AC one? (NOTE TO SELF. TESLA's Giggling somewhere about now)

240V does not effect your utility bill, Your dryer and Stove are 240V for the lower current..(think Europe here, not minding the 50Hz crap as that would just confuse things). You want to save on your electric bill, get 3 phase power, then we can talk.

My comment about romex is because it's not for use in direct burial or aerial installs and you should not pull jacketed cable in conduit. .

I didn't say direct bury, put it in PVC and BURY that, its a shed not a Castle...

These are just a few tips. Hope it helps.

Yeah thanks.....I'll keep it in mind.

 

[Rookie]

Um, What's mcm?

Glock sucks. Oops, wrong thread.

 

[hornadylnl]

Um, What's mcm?

Glock sucks. Oops, wrong thread.

1000 circle mills. Big stuff.

 

[edsinger]

1000 circle mills. Big stuff.

It is indeed,

Funny thing is Code says 500MCM is only good for 380A, I have used it for 400A calculations for years......parallel feeds and whatnot..

Now here is the funny part, in CA I HAD to go by the NEC but geez, the cost of using 600MCM was SO much more and the load would never see more than 350A. So I checked and at that time, 2004ish, 600MCM was Cheaper than 500MCM!

It appears that no one used it over the mountains and I would have to have it shipped in special..

Now that is funny stuff, but with copper being well over $4 a pound, I bet that would no longer apply....

(BTW for you guys wondering, I was AHJ)

 

[woowoo2]

Never pull romex through conduit, it will no longer shed heat properly.
If you do, de rate the amperage rating.

I would use #10 THHN type wire for your project.
But what do I know, I just play an electrician on TV

 

[woowoo2]

A small 6/8 Ckt panel could be fed from a 3 Wire Romex cable just fine. 240V, and now you have 2 legs of 120V.

This is downright scary.
Never use the ground as a neutral.
I know they are bonded at the panel, but there are two conductors there for a reason.

 

[edsinger]

Never pull romex through conduit, it will no longer shed heat properly.If you do, de rate the amperage rating.

We if you are drawing full amps for 6 years straight it could be an issue, or even more likely if it where Chinese but I have yet to see Chinese romex yet. Now we can get all technical all we want. Codes etc,

But Romex can be direct buried and last many many years. That being said, I would use it underground and in PVC. If buried 8-12 inches heat should not be an issue, its a 20A Ckt remember?

But, if THHN would be better and I agree, then what to do with the 450' spool when your done? Can you buy it in 25' lengths? If you could then that would be fine.

Romex is cheap, as long as it is not cut and conductor showing, then it should be fine. Not for 75 years of course but the original question was how to add a light/recep to a shed.

It has gone up to better than $600 already.

I mean you should at minimum bury in PVC, use RGS for everything about 6" of soil level, and above all stainless strut and straps.

I would use #10 THHN type wire for your project.But what do I know, I just play an electrician on TV

Agree on the #10AWG, although I have seen #12 take much much more than 20A for a extended period, (bad breaker)!

 

[edsinger]

This is downright scary.Never use the ground as a neutral.I know they are bonded at the panel, but there are two conductors there for a reason.

Oh I know its called a grounded conductor and all. There is a reason they are bonded together and at ONLY ONE place, usually the service entrance. We have codes and there are reasons for them. It is usually because something has happened in the past.

You know, don't cut the ground plug off a tool because you only have 2 prong receptacles etc. (This is a bad NO NO, your tool case becomes ground and you become the path)

If you look at some older items, lets say a small panel. 3 wire service for 240V, 2 legs of 120V and return. How do you ground it then? Look at what used to be done, the panel itself was grounded via the conduit etc.

Now that is not the best way by any means but it worked for a good 90 years. I mean how many of you have only 2 prong receptacles?


Here is a question, an easy one....

Does current always take the LEAST path of resistance? True or False.

 

[woowoo2]

Now we can get all technical all we want. Codes etc,

With all due respect I will stand by what I wrote.
Code is the minimum level of safety.
Romex should never be installed into conduit.

I know what will work and what should work.
That has nothing to do with doing the installation correctly.

 

[scott delaney]

if you want 20 amps of power in the shed,your going to want to run #10-3 wire at a minimum. most people wont inform you about duration(spelling) that is the drop in capacity of the wire over the distance. i would do it for you if you are within my work area

 

[oneshotonekill]

I would run a 10-3 out to your shed and put in a 4 11/16" box and just split the circuit there. You can share the neutral back to the panel. You can't put the two together anywhere outside of the main point of entrance, such as your main panel. Your not using the ground as a neutral or vice versa, they are the same point of reference, bonded in the transformer outside. When you split it at the box in the shed you will have 2 hots (black and red), a neutral (white) and your ground (green). When you take it out of the panel use 2 breakers above and below each other, they are seperate phases A and B.

You can put a romex in PVC, won't bother it at hall, as far as the heat dispersion thing, it's fine, it's in the ground, ground is cooler than your attic.

If people realized how much lee way there was in some of this stuff you'd crap your pants. You have either a 100 amp or 200 amp box in your house, if you turned on everything you had in your house and stuck an ammeter around either phase coming in, you'd be lucky to draw 60 amps.

And yes, code is only a minimum.

 

[scott delaney]

I would run a 10-3 out to your shed and put in a 4 11/16" box and just split the circuit there. You can share the neutral back to the panel. You can't put the two together anywhere outside of the main point of entrance, such as your main panel. Your not using the ground as a neutral or vice versa, they are the same point of reference, bonded in the transformer outside. When you split it at the box in the shed you will have 2 hots (black and red), a neutral (white) and your ground (green). When you take it out of the panel use 2 breakers above and below each other, they are seperate phases A and B.

You can put a romex in PVC, won't bother it at hall, as far as the heat dispersion thing, it's fine, it's in the ground, ground is cooler than your attic.

If people realized how much lee way there was in some of this stuff you'd crap your pants. You have either a 100 amp or 200 amp box in your house, if you turned on everything you had in your house and stuck an ammeter around either phase coming in, you'd be lucky to draw 60 amps.

And yes, code is only a minimum.

i agree i do hvac and the only way you will even come close to 100 amps is if your all electric :heat, water heater, dryer, and cook stove is all working at the same time

 

[woowoo2]

You can put a romex in PVC, won't bother it at hall, as far as the heat dispersion thing, it's fine, it's in the ground, ground is cooler than your attic.

It may be fine, but is it code?
I remember something about a 40% rule, applied for short conduit runs to protect the cable.
But then again I am not a real electrician, I just mess with electricity for a living.

I agree with everything else in your post.

 

[edsinger]

With all due respect I will stand by what I wrote.Code is the minimum level of safety.

Romex should never be installed into conduit.

As you should and I respect that, I do.

Romex is not made specifically for direct burial but UF cable is and to me its almost the same thing, cost should not be much different. Regular Romex is not rated for moisture and PVC is always dry right? These are the rules and I just looked them up. Hmmm Good thing the code is always right. I would like to show you my 1948/52? copy that discusses the proper tongue test for voltage. (yes I am serious!)

That being said, its been many years since I used Romex, it comes in many types now I guess. I would follow the latest code which is now, 2011, I think, so 2008 would be in force.


Use THHN, not romex. I am cool with that.

I know what will work and what should work.
That has nothing to do with doing the installation correctly.

Knob and Tube works and surprisingly is still legal. I remember the first time I ran into it. It was an old Calvary base. I did force it to be torn out, but not because it was wrong it was just 90+ years old, heck I had them tear out a ~1921 ish SquareD slide and pull breaker. Did it work? I am not sure but it had NEVER tripped in the memory of the guys working there some better than 40 years and it was their MCB (400A)....It had served its time.

If by correctly you mean by code, NEC preferably. The good ol NFPA. In this respect you are correct, and that licensed and Bonded electrician should install it so at $75 and hour or more?

But, this is a shed and since the original poster was not comfortable with electricity, then he is doing the right thing.

However, it is his house and should he so choose this job could be done for much less money and I would argue safely. Some would not, but I don't play around with electricity I respect it to much and have been actually bitten by it more than once, but I don't deal much with 20A circuits anymore....(except at home).

 

[oneshotonekill]

the 40% fill is for area inside a conduit. I dont have my code book in front of me to give you the specifics. It also gets into current carrying conductors as well before you have to derate, as well as ambient temperature to determine ampacity of a given wire.

In this case since there are only 2 current carrying conductors it is sort of a "if it fits its fine" sorta thing. It wont go into a 1/2" pvc, but if you buried a 3/4" pvc she'll slide right in.

If you don't wanna fool with pipe you can get direct burial rated cable, which is some pretty good stuff. I would definately put a pvc 90 where it emerges from the ground at the shed though.

 

[bass pro]

I am an electrician with 31 years exp. I would be willing to help you. Just pm me for details.

 

[edsinger]

if you want 20 amps of power in the shed,your going to want to run #10-3 wire at a minimum. most people wont inform you about duration(spelling) that is the drop in capacity of the wire over the distance. i would do it for you if you are within my work area

Voltage drop should not be an issue, its 25' ft or so. I would just use #10 in case I needed more amp capacity later...but it is not needed by any means.

I would run a 10-3 out to your shed and put in a 4 11/16" box and just split the circuit there. **SNIP** When you take it out of the panel use 2 breakers above and below each other, they are separate phases A and B.

Sorry for the Snip but I agree with what you said here. Cheap and safe solution to OP issue.

You can put a romex in PVC, won't bother it at hall, as far as the heat dispersion thing, it's fine, it's in the ground, ground is cooler than your attic.

I had thought so but I guess the new romex is not water friendly but I still think it would be fine.

If people realized how much lee way there was in some of this stuff you'd crap your pants. You have either a 100 amp or 200 amp box in your house, if you turned on everything you had in your house and stuck an ammeter around either phase coming in, you'd be lucky to draw 60 amps.

That is all fine and dandy, but you have turned on the coffee pot yet, all bets are off

And yes, code is only a minimum.

Agreed but which one?

i agree i do hvac and the only way you will even come close to 100 amps is if your all electric :heat, water heater, dryer, and cook stove is all working at the same time

You also forgot the coffee pot.......I think one needs a 40A breaker for that alone

It may be fine, but is it code?
I remember something about a 40% rule, applied for short conduit runs to protect the cable.But then again I am not a real electrician, I just mess with electricity for a living.

The 40% rule is for heat, thus the deration rule. I would bet in 90% of manufacturing facilities that rule is not in compliance. Maybe when originally built, but no longer. (Note to self, they can get one more circuit in there, just watch and see!) Not that it is right, but it is life.

 

[edsinger]

Oh yeah I want to see what answers I get,

Does current always take the least path of resistance? True or False statement?

This could save your life one day.....

 

[hornadylnl]

Oh yeah I want to see what answers I get,

Does current always take the least path of resistance? True or False statement?

This could save your life one day.....

Some people will only work with 1 hand in a panel because of what's in-between your hands.