Did Holder have a point?

[dross]

Like many people, I was angry when the Eric Holder called us a nation of cowards. One of the things that angered me was that the left doesn't recognize that the tactic of calling someone a racist for opposing policies like affirmative action, or tightening the borders, tends to chill any freedom to discuss.

Those on the left tend to thing we on the right are outright racists, or at best, just insensitive types who don't get it. I think they're wrong most of the time.

With all that said, I've been disturbed at some of the things I've read on this site. I've come across several comments that are not just insensitive, they're outright racist, or bigoted. I've called out each of these I've seen, and a couple of others have commented as well. Each time the moderators shut the thread down pretty quickly, giving the reason that the thread had gotten off subject. I suggested that they leave those threads open, to let good folks step up and condemn the bigoted remarks. They see it differently, and I respect that, though I disagree.

So, here's a thread in the politics forum, specifically about what constitutes a racist or bigoted statement. I'm interested in your thoughts.

What is a racist or bigoted statement? Do we have a moral responsibility to step up and put ourselves in open disagreement with such statements?

 

[jennybird]

I realize you're not speaking specifically about me, but quite honestly, I am sick and tired of having to be "politically correct" for fear of offending someone at every turn. With all due respect, that includes you.

I have a certain amount of respect for those who tell it like it is instead of trying to sugar-coat everything. I may or may not agree with their choice of words or their take on things, but God bless em for being honest!

My point is a simple one. Everyone has an opinion. It's a perfectly natural thing for any human being with a brain to have. If someone else doesn't like it, fine... they have grey matter with which to form opinions too. Why in the world would it be a "moral responsibility" to disagree with someone under these circumstances?

I feel the question "What is a racist or bigoted statement" is merely an attempt to pick a fight. Isn't that just as bad as spewing one of those bigoted statements you refer to? It's all a matter of hair-splitting anyway... but I have a feeling you are well aware of that.

As for closing threads here, that is at the sole discretion of the mods. I suggest you don't **** em off. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[RogerB]

for Jennybird.

This morning I modified my signature line just for this very issue.

There will be times that a subject will make me redline and I'll vent my opinion to get it off my chest. As I posted in another thread, about dropping people from a C130 at 3,000 feet back to their homelands.

Would I actually support doing that, of course not. Am I expressing how angry I am at seeing a Military force thats been defending our/their freedoms being protested, yep you bet.

Just like its the protesters right to protest, its my right to object to it.

Okay? There, there's my FWIW.

 

[Chefcook]

for Jennybird.

This morning I modified my signature line just for this very issue.

There will be times that a subject will make me redline and I'll vent my opinion to get it off my chest. As I posted in another thread, about dropping people from a C130 at 3,000 feet back to their homelands.

Would I actually support doing that, of course not. Am I expressing how angry I am at seeing a Military force thats been defending our/their freedoms being protested, yep you bet.

Just like its the protesters right to protest, its my right to object to it.

Okay? There, there's my FWIW.

I actually suggested putting those same folks in a blender with some swine added to the mix then using said mix as fertilizer. MMMMM does that make me a racist? Would I actually do something like that? Opinions are just opinions everyone has one. Am I a racist? No, an azzhole yes, but a racist naaa.

 

[RogerB]

I actually suggested putting those same folks in a blender with some swine added to the mix then using said mix as fertilizer. MMMMM does that make me a racist? Would I actually do something like that? Opinions are just opinions everyone has one. Am I a racist? No, an azzhole yes, but a racist naaa.

zactly....just a crazy azzhole with a blender.

lol

 

[HICKMAN]

With all that said, I've been disturbed at some of the things I've read on this site. I've come across several comments that are not just insensitive, they're outright racist, or bigoted. I've called out each of these I've seen, and a couple of others have commented as well.

Spend much time out of the state dross? The phrase "methinks thou doest protest too much" comes to mind. You seem a little "too" sensitive to this issue.

I don't have a "black friend", I have several black, latino and hispanic brothers, people I grew up with at various army bases as a kid or life long friends I've had in the service. These "racist" or "bigoted" statements that offend you are common slang among many friends, especially in the service. For the most part, they are just words that bother no one but the sensitive.

Granted, you've been correct in pointing out some real racism in some posts and hopefully it dies with the dumbasses who are still racist. That won't change overnight, but their numbers are far fewer in the past.

What pisses me off are those to "sensitive" to talk about race. I'll call out any man, no matter what his color, if he's capable of working and he's taking a welfare check. I protest illegal immigrants, no matter what their color, because they don't belong here regardless of their situation. I protest the hypocrisy of "church" leadership telling their followers that America is holding them down and that "white conservatives" are Klansmen, when in fact, the KKK was started by the DEMOCRAT PARTY.

I'll argue my views and beliefs with anyone, regardless of race and tell it like it is, regardless of race. Because of that, I will be and have been called a racist, when in fact I am debating the facts, without concern of color.

I debate the person, not the color.

 

[dross]

I realize you're not speaking specifically about me, but quite honestly, I am sick and tired of having to be "politically correct" for fear of offending someone at every turn. With all due respect, that includes you.

I don't like political correctness and I'm not defending it. As to what's being overly PC and what's a racist statement is certainly up for discussion. I think referring to an entire race or religion with a slur is racist. Do you think that's just being PC?

I have a certain amount of respect for those who tell it like it is instead of trying to sugar-coat everything. I may or may not agree with their choice of words or their take on things, but God bless em for being honest!

How is a slur "being honest"? It seems like the opposite to me.

My point is a simple one. Everyone has an opinion. It's a perfectly natural thing for any human being with a brain to have. If someone else doesn't like it, fine... they have grey matter with which to form opinions too.

Why in the world would it be a "moral responsibility" to disagree with someone under these circumstances?

Yes, everyone has opinions. If I don't like your opinion, why shouldn't I be able to tell you I don't like it, and why? Isn't that what speech and discussion are about? I think the moral responsibility comes in when an "opinion" is so mean-spirited and wrong in my opinion, that I can't in good conscience let it go unanswered. About fifteen years ago, I was playing on a tennis team, and we played a team from Philadelphia. The members were all black. Our coach said to me that, "I'd be embarassed to lose to a bunch of niggers." I didn't say anything at the time because I liked the coach and wanted him to like me. But I felt guilty for years that I didn't step up and put myself on the other side of that statement. My moral courage failed me. Don't you think I had a moral responsibility to tell him that I didn't agree? He had to assumed from my silence that I was right there with him.

I feel the question "What is a racist or bigoted statement" is merely an attempt to pick a fight. Isn't that just as bad as spewing one of those bigoted statements you refer to? It's all a matter of hair-splitting anyway... but I have a feeling you are well aware of that.?

It was an attempt to "pick" a discussion, or an argument if you like, which is a type of discussion where people with differing opinions disagree. Which is what I thought the purpose of this category is in the first place, or is it just to post things we all agree with and and to sign on in our agreement? A civil argument need not be a fight. If it's "hair-splitting" then make your case. I'm willing to change or modify my opinion in the face of a compelling argument.

As for closing threads here, that is at the sole discretion of the mods. I suggest you don't **** em off. But that’s just my opinion.

I think I made it clear that I undersood whose discretion it is to close threads. If my polite and respectful disagreement pisses them off, then this isn't the forum for me.

 

[dross]

Spend much time out of the state dross? The phrase "methinks thou doest protest too much" comes to mind. You seem a little "too" sensitive to this issue.

I don't have a "black friend", I have several black, latino and hispanic brothers, people I grew up with at various army bases as a kid or life long friends I've had in the service. These "racist" or "bigoted" statements that offend you are common slang among many friends, especially in the service. For the most part, they are just words that bother no one but the sensitive.

Granted, you've been correct in pointing out some real racism in some posts and hopefully it dies with the dumbasses who are still racist. That won't change overnight, but their numbers are far fewer in the past.

What pisses me off are those to "sensitive" to talk about race. I'll call out any man, no matter what his color, if he's capable of working and he's taking a welfare check. I protest illegal immigrants, no matter what their color, because they don't belong here regardless of their situation. I protest the hypocrisy of "church" leadership telling their followers that America is holding them down and that "white conservatives" are Klansmen, when in fact, the KKK was started by the DEMOCRAT PARTY.

I'll argue my views and beliefs with anyone, regardless of race and tell it like it is, regardless of race. Because of that, I will be and have been called a racist, when in fact I am debating the facts, without concern of color.

I debate the person, not the color.

I don't find anything in your post I disagree with, except your characterization of me. I don't care for the term "offended" - I think it trivializes my point. I don't worry about offending someone, or about being offended myself. I'm talking about calling out someone who uses ugly racist terms to describe an entire group of people.

I think you might be very surprised to know some of my beliefs. I've been called racist myself for simply pointing out provable facts. That's a lot different than the things I've taken on in this forum. Please, tell me where I've challenged someone out of over-sensitivity.

 

[turnandshoot4]

I think that we still can't be honest in this country. The fact that some races can't talk about race shows that we can't be honest. A slur can be honest as long as you aren't talking about people as a whole. Because there are no absolutes. I know many people who are "white trash" and that is being nice. Is that a slur?

I think when something is baseless is when you run into problems. Say what you want, just have facts to back it up is how I look at it.

 

[jennybird]

I think referring to an entire race or religion with a slur is racist. Do you think that's just being PC?

"Racist" is subjective. If you think a comment is racist, it doesn't necessarily mean it is, or that the person saying it is a racist. If it is, chalk it up to that persons opinion, shake your head, and move on. I don’t consider that reaction to be PC… I consider it my choice to not get into an argument over what I consider to be an idiotic statement. If you don’t care for the PC route, then by all means let ‘em have it! I’m all for freedom of speech… even if it is considered by some to be racist.

How is a slur "being honest"? It seems like the opposite to me.

How can a slur be categorized as dishonest? If someone is expressing their true feelings and opinions, you can’t get much more honest than that.

Yes, everyone has opinions. If I don't like your opinion, why shouldn't I be able to tell you I don't like it, and why?

Your question wasn't whether or not you should or shouldn't be able to tell me. Your question was "is it our moral obligation". Yes, you should feel free to tell me whatever is on your mind if you want to, just as it is my choice as to whether or not I decide to listen. Either way, no, it is not a “moral obligation” to disagree with someone’s opinion.

My moral courage failed me. Don't you think I had a moral responsibility to tell him that I didn't agree? He had to assumed from my silence that I was right there with him.

Who cares what he assumed? His opinion of you does not define who YOU are. Did his comment change your opinion of black people? Apparently not. Would you have changed his opinion had you said something? Nope. You would have accomplished nothing more than possibly making yourself feel better. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't have said something, I'm just saying it was not a moral dilemma on your part.

By the way, why is it ok for black people to use the word "******", but if white folks do it's "racist"? Yeah, that double-standard makes a lot of sense doesn't it. Another example of being forced into being PC.

It was an attempt to "pick" a discussion, or an argument if you like, which is a type of discussion where people with differing opinions disagree. Which is what I thought the purpose of this category is in the first place, or is it just to post things we all agree with and and to sign on in our agreement? .

This is obviously not a place where people hold back opinions, or you wouldn’t have had reason to start this thread in the first place.

A civil argument need not be a fight. If it's "hair-splitting" then make your case. I'm willing to change or modify my opinion in the face of a compelling argument.

It’s hair-splitting because you’re asking people to answer “what is a racist or bigoted statement”. It’s all a matter of opinion, point-of-view, subject-matter, circumstances, experiences and a thousand other varying factors. There is no way to make this a case of black or white. (Some people I know would say that last sentence was racist… which would again prove my point.)

 

[Chefcook]

Who needs cable...

 

[RogerB]

Who needs cable...

me...not enough boob references in here...pass the popcorn

 

[jennybird]

For the peanut gallery....

 

[4sarge]

I realize you're not speaking specifically about me, but quite honestly, I am sick and tired of having to be "politically correct" for fear of offending someone at every turn. With all due respect, that includes you.

I have a certain amount of respect for those who tell it like it is instead of trying to sugar-coat everything. I may or may not agree with their choice of words or their take on things, but God bless em for being honest!

My point is a simple one. Everyone has an opinion. It's a perfectly natural thing for any human being with a brain to have. If someone else doesn't like it, fine... they have grey matter with which to form opinions too. Why in the world would it be a "moral responsibility" to disagree with someone under these circumstances?

I feel the question "What is a racist or bigoted statement" is merely an attempt to pick a fight. Isn't that just as bad as spewing one of those bigoted statements you refer to? It's all a matter of hair-splitting anyway... but I have a feeling you are well aware of that.

As for closing threads here, that is at the sole discretion of the mods. I suggest you don't **** em off. But that’s just my opinion.

and repped I'm also sick of the PC speak and a couple of my threads have been closed
but Not because of me, but because of the PC bickering of certain users.
If these users are "this" sensitive then in my opinion, Do Not Read the Thread and "Move On" for "CHANGE"

 

[RogerB]

 

[dross]

"Racist" is subjective. If you think a comment is racist, it doesn't necessarily mean it is, or that the person saying it is a racist.

Exactly the reason to have a discussion about this.

How can a slur be categorized as dishonest? If someone is expressing their true feelings and opinions, you can’t get much more honest than that..

I'm not saying the person is being dishonest about their feelings, simply that the slur itself is dishonest by its very nature. To categorize everyone of a particular race or religion as having the same flaws simply by virtue of belonging to that race or religion without consideration for the individuals within that race or religion, is fundamentally dishonest.

Your question wasn't whether or not you should or shouldn't be able to tell me. Your question was "is it our moral obligation". Yes, you should feel free to tell me whatever is on your mind if you want to, just as it is my choice as to whether or not I decide to listen. Either way, no, it is not a “moral obligation” to disagree with someone’s opinion.

I spent eleven years in the Army, nine of those as an NCO. One of the areas graded on my yearly evaluation was "moral courage." Which is defined as having the courage to do what's right even in the face of negative consequences. In leadership courses, examples like this were often used as examples of moral courage or the lack of it. I respect that you don't think you have an obligation to speak up in the face of what you see as wrong, but I think I do.

Who cares what he assumed? His opinion of you does not define who YOU are. Did his comment change your opinion of black people? Apparently not. Would you have changed his opinion had you said something? Nope. You would have accomplished nothing more than possibly making yourself feel better. I'm not saying you should or shouldn't have said something, I'm just saying it was not a moral dilemma on your part.

To me, the moral issue is not about changing anyone, it's about putting yourself on the side of what's right, rather than taking the easy road of letting people think what they want about you. What would have been different if I had spoken up is that I would have put him on notice that I didn't like his use of racist slurs. I would have taken a stand.

By the way, why is it ok for black people to use the word "******", but if white folks do it's "racist"? Yeah, that double-standard makes a lot of sense doesn't it. Another example of being forced into being PC.

Different question. Not all black people use the word, and many chastise other black folks for using it. I don't see the relevance of that point to this discussion.

It’s hair-splitting because you’re asking people to answer “what is a racist or bigoted statement”. It’s all a matter of opinion, point-of-view, subject-matter, circumstances, experiences and a thousand other varying factors. There is no way to make this a case of black or white. (Some people I know would say that last sentence was racist… which would again prove my point.)

Isn't that exactly why it's worthy of discussion? Are you suggesting that no statement is so far out of line that it's just wrong? It's all just hair-splitting and objective? I agree that some things are, but are you saying that nothing is so far out there that we can't come to a consensus that saying it is wrong?

 

[HICKMAN]

I don't find anything in your post I disagree with, except your characterization of me. I don't care for the term "offended" - I think it trivializes my point. I don't worry about offending someone, or about being offended myself. I'm talking about calling out someone who uses ugly racist terms to describe an entire group of people.

I think you might be very surprised to know some of my beliefs. I've been called racist myself for simply pointing out provable facts. That's a lot different than the things I've taken on in this forum. Please, tell me where I've challenged someone out of over-sensitivity.

Fair enough

 

[dross]

and repped I'm also sick of the PC speak and a couple of my threads have been closed
but Not because of me, but because of the PC bickering of certain users.
If these users are "this" sensitive then in my opinion, Do Not Read the Thread and "Move On" for "CHANGE"

I don't care for or promote "PC speak". I don't consider challenging a statement on a discussion forum to be "bickering."

Perhaps you are the one who is "sensitive."

 

[hornadylnl]

If you deem certain words slurs, people will just use different ones. Here's an example, although not a very good one. "Man, there's too many black people here, lets get out of here." Change that to "it's awfully dark in here, lets get out of here." The thought is the same but you changed the wording to sound "pc".

Here is my thought. Someone can make a generalization about me based on my race, color, gender or whatever and I don't get bothered by it if it isn't true. Anyone remember "White Men Can't Jump"? Yeah, I can't jump but is that a racist thing to get bothered about? The only two things you can call me that will get under my skin is a liar and a thief. I guard my integrity for closely. Call me fat. Yes, I'm overweight. Call me short. Yes, I'm not very tall. Call me a cracker. I'm not a dried up piece of bread so I don't get offended. I only get offended by that because of the hypocrisy of the minorities out there that want to cry racism every chance they get.

Comments like "oh he's black so he can get away with it" aren't racist. They are just stating the fact of what a double standard we have today.

 

[CarmelHP]

I can't even figure out what is being argued about. OK, I'll just watch, too.